Comments

Best sourcing is the key - this is an old story - and yes - the democrats' union dominated K-12 school failures over the decades - has indeed set up the USA to be 2nd class in science/math/technology/engineering - whereas India/Korea/China flourish in those disciplines.

Posted by Sean at April 4, 2005 9:53 AM

This is news?? Sean is right, and Tom makes this point in his book as well. As a society, we do not value early-stage education, for if we did, we would be world class. Alas, we are not. Thus, other societies which do value education more than we do will catch up and eventually surpass us, both in "blue collar" and "white collar" jobs.

Posted by Carlos N Velez at April 4, 2005 10:04 AM

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Finally, it's all about this. Isn't it?

Jay, from Bangalore

Posted by Jayakumar Hariharan at April 4, 2005 10:25 AM

Sean,

Are India/Korea/China k-12 schools all privatized and market-based as compared to those evil socialist US schools?

And maybe they don't waste so much time arguing about creationism vs. evolution.

Or maybe those cultures just have more respect for teachers and education because they see it as a way out of a pretty crappy life.

Posted by Derek Scruggs at April 4, 2005 12:40 PM

Derek and Carlos - seems if we can get more private USA schools online then the competitive USA lifestyle will prevail and we can compete globally.

Posted by Sean at April 4, 2005 1:01 PM

I think Friedman is on to something and we need to do something about our education system. As someone whose work takes him to may foreign countries, the Internet has changed many things and opened our markets to the entire world. The Internet has not completely changed the cultures of these countries (yet?). The Internet is not breeding a race of super-Indians who will come here and exterminate us. It is very likely however that we will see Indian companies like Infosys come here and threaten IBM, EDS, etc.

We went through this super-race stuff in the 80's with the Japanese. Some Japanese firms like Toyota were able to fully penetrate our market, others couldnt make the cultural jump.

This global economic meme is not going away. China, India, Korea are all going to become real things in our economic lives. Then maybe Thailand and Bangladesh are going to rise economically. Someday Africa will too. The point of all of this is first as Americans we have to keep moving forward and finding new ways to innovate and much of that is going to rely on people with technical skills. Second, as an individual, you have to be the rainmaker. The one person that your group cannot do without. If you're a rainmaker with IBM and Infosys someday eclipses them, you can be sure that Infosys will be looking for you.

Posted by kurt wendelken at April 4, 2005 1:59 PM

Friedman eloquently highlights the situation Daniel Pink discusses in A Whole New Mind.

Posted by CP at April 4, 2005 4:27 PM

While on the job hunt I am subbing in some of the lesser school districts outside Ft. Worth, TX.

I think you can trace all this marlarkey back to Dr. Benjamin Spock. The kids have no fear of authority. This was supposed to support their creativity. I find that they are neither creative or disciplined. Sometimes listening to the customer leads to a dead end, no? I think our educational system is in a cul-de-sac with a one way gate.

Students conversations are about the most mundane of topics...imagine three students spending 30 minutes of class time on their dental hygiene with remarkable attention to detail. And, I get tired of being asked if I smoked weed. What has that to do with the price of tea in China?

I get the sense that arousing their curiosity about the world that surrounds them is no longer a part of the curriculum. And, intrinsic learning? I used to read through the white set of World Books we had. Now, when they get on the web, Yahoo! Games is a hot destination.

Maybe it is time to reintroduce the Socratic Method? I wonder if there are teachers who have to skill to use it?

Why did they have 30 minutes to spend on dental hygiene? Because teachers leave make busy work when a sub is in front of their classes. I cannot begin to count the number of times I have sat through "Stand and Deliver" with Edward James Olmos.

Sad thing is that I taught in college and these kids are disadvantage before they walk on campus.

If Tom wants to really rant, he should take a look at the Wilmer-Hutchins ISD outside Dallas.

Posted by Dutch Driver at April 5, 2005 12:27 AM

Dutch, I reject the notion that kids should be taught to fear authority. To fear authority is to disable any hope for creativity. How can you be imaginative and innovative in an environment which suppresses you? For this is exactly what fear does.
And yet, I am in agreement with the spirit of your sentiment. However, I think that kids should have a healthy respect for authority. A healthy respect means that you build on the efforts and achievements of those that came before you, while retaining your ability to blow them out of the water when a better course makes itself apparent.
In addition, I don't think the internet is a real problem. The internet is just a tool. It has its great points,its useless points, and its harmful points...the problem is, we might not be teaching our kids how to use it properly(maybe because we don't know how ourselves?)but the fact of the matter is that it is here and we had better figure out a way to make it work to ours and our kids benefit.

Posted by fredd kambo at April 5, 2005 7:58 AM

Who cares if it is an 'old issue'. It's a current one that needs addressing.

I'm not sure if the playing field has been leveled, or is leveling. However, I can say that the competition is heating up. Even a small competitor can chink a company's armor - so it is worth taking a real look at. One of my clients has their own graphic designers on the marketing team and IT team in the office, but they have begun outsourcing their web programming to a group in India that is one fourth the rate normally paid here. Their rate covers html, flash and d-base programming. We have just decided to work with them for our client's websites. We'll still do design internally, but all programming will be done there. By 'outsourcing' to a firm in India it puts us in position to maintain and/or increase our profit margin while offering more competitive pricing. Is it really outsourcing at this point, or is it looking for the best and least expensive vendor for your company?

As far as the education issue - there are a lot of Indians coming to the U.S. for college and then they're going back to India to work. Plus, they've brought back their education to India to train others to make a difference. Private sector doing its part to invigorate an economy. Hmmm, sounds very...American.

Posted by Tony May / Mayday Media at April 5, 2005 9:44 AM

New issues / new spins are what spark innovation and enerby - therefore more care.

The best quote on this is from Dan Pink - A Whole New Mind [to paraphrase]:

"Outsourcing to Asia is overhyped in the short term, but underhyped in the long term. ... India becomes (by 2010) the country with the most English speakers in the world ...

Designers, planners, systems innovators, dealers in artistic endeavors, those who understand emotions and dreams - to flourish "high touch and high concept" - to create emotional and artistic beauty": those are some aptitudes that prevail."

Posted by Sean at April 5, 2005 12:07 PM

Granted, the education system in the United States is a mess, but I'm not sure I'm willing to blame it all on contemporary politicians. I remember reading a quote from someone a while back who talked about the fact that our education system is based on the factory model of the industrial revolution. Unfortunately, that is in many ways antithetical to the way human beings actually learn. It may work well for producing factory workers, but in a knowledge economy it's the wrong approach. I have my own opinions about how to change it, but for now I'll reserve judgement.

As for China, Korea, India and others, these are societies that have long and rich histories of innovation and productivity. Unfortunately, much of the western world is unaware of them. Now that they are becoming integrated into the fabric of the global economy we are interacting with them for the first time and often see them as a threat.

Maybe the opportunity here is to learn from their innovative histories and bring their creativity to our shores in the same way many people from these countries have taken advantage of the expertise in the United States. It's not all about cheap labor and poor environmental standards.

Posted by Andrew Hayden at April 5, 2005 5:00 PM

Its funny how there is no mention of the parents’ role in a child's education here. Is that perhaps, at least, part the problem?

I'm not so concerned about poor education here in the US. A long bout of poor consumerism may well do us in well before American illiteracy takes hold, and who’s to say that’s a bad thing. Less traffic, less growth, less everything – how wonderful.

Odd, how Americans are so fearful of the rest of the world catching up with us while “we” are so obsessed with spreading democracy and capitalism (our way of life) around the globe. Be democratic and capitalistic, but forever remain inferior. Yeah right.

Posted by vector at April 6, 2005 12:24 AM

I am unable to comprehend why everybody extols the educational system in India. I live in India and as I see it the official primary and high school education system in India is already in a shambles and has been like this for the past many years. This is the situation in the cities and in the villages the things are worse off. As far as the government schools are concerned, the recruitment of teachers in India has now been changed to a contract system, where the teacher gets paid a paltry sum and his/her job is also not assured. There is plenty of overcrowding (60 -70 students in a class. However, what is different here is that the parents have a workaround solution to these problems. Either they enrol their children in partly governemnt funded schools run by trusts (which are very well managed) or fully private and elite schools (if they can afford the high fees) or if both are unaffordable then the children are taught by the parents (if they are literate) or they are put into something very popular here called as "coaching classes" (paid tuition type private schools) in ADDITION to the regular school.
Hence at the end of the day the child does educated, but this is not because of any special government initiatives, it is because of the parents initiatives.

Posted by Mandar at April 6, 2005 2:37 AM

I think the "education mess" in the US is a giant red herring. India doesn't have an outstanding education system but we do the absolute best with what we have. The real reason Indians work like crazy and want to study hard (despite all obstacles) is our culture. Because of this value on education, the government hugely subsidises higher education - in the late 1980s, I paid the equivalent of less than $100 for my college education. Very inexpensive even by Indian standards. So far, so good - nothing new here.

Now how does this culture and value for education get passed down to kids? Through parents and grandparents. With the massive divorce rates in the US and the apparently casual approach to marriage/relationships, family structures are suffering from neutron-bombing - people are left standing but families are getting massacred. This means your values aren't getting passed on. American kids are possibly too stressed out dealing with their parents' breakup and multiple step-siblings to worry about education and work, unlike Indian kids who are usually stressed out 'only' about exams and getting a job.

I'm not saying all Indian marriages are happy - but Indian parents do everything - including putting up with each other - to ensure the kids don't suffer. I may be wrong but unlike in the US (or at least contemporary US), kids come first in an Indian marriage, to the extent that parents are quite willing to erase their identities as individuals in favour of their identities as parents.

But don't worry about your jobs so soon - divorce rates are quickly climbing in India too (especially in the urban/educated population), so at some point, we'll have the same problems that you do.

Posted by Chetan Dhruve at April 6, 2005 7:01 AM

I think the "education mess" in the US is a giant red herring. India doesn't have an outstanding education system but we do the absolute best with what we have. The real reason Indians work like crazy and want to study hard (despite all obstacles) is our culture. Because of this value on education, the government hugely subsidises higher education - in the late 1980s, I paid the equivalent of less than $100 for my college education. Very inexpensive even by Indian standards. So far, so good - nothing new here.

Now how does this culture and value for education get passed down to kids? Through parents and grandparents. With the massive divorce rates in the US and the apparently casual approach to marriage/relationships, family structures are suffering from neutron-bombing - people are left standing but families are getting massacred. This means your values aren't getting passed on. American kids are possibly too stressed out dealing with their parents' breakup and multiple step-siblings to worry about education and work, unlike Indian kids who are usually stressed out 'only' about exams and getting a job.

I'm not saying all Indian marriages are happy - but Indian parents do everything - including putting up with each other - to ensure the kids don't suffer. I may be wrong but unlike in the US (or at least contemporary US), kids come first in an Indian marriage, to the extent that parents are quite willing to erase their identities as individuals in favour of their identities as parents.

But don't worry about your jobs so soon - divorce rates are quickly climbing in India too (especially in the urban/educated population), so at some point, we'll have the same problems that you do.

Posted by Chetan Dhruve at April 6, 2005 7:03 AM

With regard to the marriage issue, it sounds like more of a root issue than the education is. If the nuclear family is maintained (mom, dad & kids), then there is more of a focus on looking out for what is best for everyone. The commitment to staying together is an anchor to long term success and growth not just with the family but with culture at large. Would you say that is correct, Chetan? I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here - I agree with the point I believe you're making.

Posted by Tony May / Mayday Media at April 6, 2005 9:13 AM

See:
http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/ExportingJobs.htm

Posted by Avi Solomon at April 6, 2005 9:54 PM

Sean, I agree with the last sentence of your last post. I still think that the jury is out on the long-term implications. I'm not voting one way or the other. Right now, it's a good, viable option for us. Five years from now...who knows. But like I said...I agree with the parting sentiments.

Posted by Tony May at April 6, 2005 11:45 PM

Regarding some of Hary Browne's comments...

I am looking at 'outsourcing' our clients' web programming needs not so much for the purpose of jacking our profit margin as to retain a competitive advantage against other firms. I'd love to support my fellow Americans. But if outsourcing that one element of our projects is the determining factor between landing or retaining a client and not...I'm going to outsource.

If I choose not to outsource and I lose or never land the client as a result, I just got 100% of nothing. Had I outsourced, I keep or land the client. To me, it's just that simple. It's not that cut and dry for everyone though.

Posted by Tony May at April 6, 2005 11:50 PM

I have been talking about Tom Freidman's article in the Times where he talks about kids in China or India who hang from the rafters when Bill Gates come to visit but ask an American kid who Bill Gates is and duh...but ask them who Britney Speers is and they know - when was the last time you asked an American 12 year old what he wanted to be when he grew up and he said an engineer...I think the next generation of young people from China and India and Japan will be the creators and innovators in the information technology fields - a role that we in the USA used to be known for in all industries but the kids today in the USA don't have a clue as to what competition is coming down the road at them with the next baby boomers globally. Because I work with many people from Asia - I do see a correlation between cultures of other countries, i.e., families sticking together for the kids and focusing on education - I have had experience with USA computer geeks who at 14 - coming from broken homes and experiencing their first freedoms as high school kids get totally caught up in sex, drugs and rock 'n roll instead of continuing studies and wanting to be leaders of the 21st century...both candidates during the last campaign never discussed the reality of the work place and globalization and what the next generation has to face in this country...outsourcing is a done deal with all business - it makes common sense and when I hear a politician pick up on this as an issue - I know how phony he/she really is because this is a done deal and cannot be changed... and it is part of the evolution of the times. The whole world is our neighborhood and it is exhilarating.

Posted by Suzanne Guglielmi at April 7, 2005 1:09 AM

Thomas Friedman is probably one of the few American journalists/experts who looks beyond the usual parameters of comparison between the US and India like education, IT infrastructure, engineers, call centers, etc.
He digs deeper to make the 'real' connection - into the mind of an Indian CEO, a fresh college graduate, priorities in Indian society, poverty, Indo-Pakistan stand-off, age-old traditions, etc. I personally feel all of this culminated in shaping what India is becoming right now!!
I would not buy the 'Flat World' theme completely as there is still a huge technological gap between the US and the rest of the world(China, India, Eastern Europe) in one MAJOR aspect. Innovation to be mass-produced needs the right setup that is already in place in the US - a number of well-funded educational institutions with a humongous talent of highly-qualified researchers/teachers and large infrastructure, network between government and the research centers, regulations/standards in every aspect of engineering/sciences/medicine, an excellent schooling system. However, this book serves as a sound warning to a more likely situation in the future, given the present misprioritized commitments of the government and falling number of American kids pursuing engineering and sciences!
Friedman thinks that the US is best when challenged. For all I know, the race is already on and all I care is how the standings would look 10 years from now..call it post-march madness with a long term perspective!!

Posted by Mahesh at April 7, 2005 9:13 AM

Suzanne, it has just occurred to me that in contracting our clients' web programming out to a firm in India - it's no different than when we (historically) would trade product X with China for their tea. Then it was called trading. Now it is called outsourcing. Those of us 'trading' services with another country's residences aren't really doing anything new. This is a tradition well over 200 years old.

Since we are considered the most (of one of the most) creative countries in the world, I'm sure that those 'put out to pasture' in programming will either come up with a creative way to get their business back - or adapt and do something new. I was just having Bible study at our house earlier this week and a friend of ours in our small group is a programmer. I told him what we were doing. His firm, after our discussion, is going to investigate grabbing more business than they would ordinarily pursue and outsource the programming to our friends in India.

I think that ultimately, the people who get bent out of shape over the issue of 'outsourcing' jobs to China, India, etc. are on the wrong end of those deals - be it business owners or employess. Everyone I have talked with who is doing the outsourcing is thrilled about it. It's doing wonders for their business - and they have not downsized anyone as a result of it. They simply shift responsibilities for some tasks. Those not so thrilled about it are the ones who lost deals to competing companies or lost jobs.

Here's my suggestion to them - become, or go be a part of, a more aggressive company. That...is capitalism.

Posted by Tony May / Mayday Media at April 7, 2005 9:44 AM

Hmmm... the reason I'm visiting this site is because I rediscovered Tom's BrandYou book. I dusted it off and am rereading it (and redo-ing the exercises). Did he not say 90% of white collar jobs are going the way manufacturing jobs went? How right he was.

Overfocusing on the American education system IS a red herring. People will always outperform the system. Because of the way politics works (or maybe "operates" would be a better word, since "works" has connotations of success), American education will never get the complete overhaul it needs. It's modeled on the manufacturing/industrial model, cranking out substandard widgets called consumer/job applicants. The bright ones shake it off like a bad dream and self-actualize.

What kids have in other nations that American kids don't have is fathers, for one thing, and extended rather than nuclear families, for another.

Posted by Michael Martine at April 9, 2005 9:10 AM