Comments

What is freedom of speech? It's about having the balls to stand up and speak your mind - to stand up for what you believe in. It is a freedom our forefathers died to give us.

In these online communities everyone can speak freely and because we are writing our ideas down many of us think about our ideas more carefully. By not having the same level of emotion that can be found in personal debates, we can have discussions based solely on the merit of our ideas. The ancient Greeks would have loved it!

Posted by Cassandra Helm at May 25, 2005 4:21 AM

Great topic Halley

I'm with you Cassandra - say it as it really is.

Blogs provide a wonderful opportunity to have conversations openly across the planet that we have all wanted for years about things that matter to us.

Almost 100% of people act like adults about all this and it is such a shame that when 'really free' speech is 'enabled' we then have to find ways of looking for some kind of regulation.

To me that is a sure recipe for restriction of people’s imagination.

Look at any older, well established organisation that is bound up with complex rules and regulation and you will need an immensely powerful lamp to find the creativity and imagination.

Look at ‘new kid on the block’, small, young, cage rattling organisations that aren’t yet old enough to have got their own complex, messy rules and regulations and there is a good chance you will find creativity and imagination. It really is as simple as that.

Don’t let regulation kill imagination gets my vote on this.

Phew ..that feels better!!

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 25, 2005 4:36 AM

Timely Halley, Trevor, Cassandra - love to see a TP company set of "blog rules/ethics at the TP site".

Then again people at the TP site seem cool and civil enough - Noel though with his deal was a bit radical.

[Noel - I have a friend I work with in D.C. whose wife is also Iranian - she is ZIP/NADA/Nyet outspoken at all - because she has family in Iran [whose huge young people demographics support the west/UK/USA] - and she doesn't trust the radical cleric environment].

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Posted by Sean at May 25, 2005 5:59 AM

I’ve read some of Joi Ito’s posts and he seems sound to me (even if he has gotten a little bored with blogging and is looking for maybe a little attention from his fans!). On the more important topic - what are acceptable comments and what should we do about comments we find unacceptable? I guess people who host their own blogs have the right to censor comments they don’t like. I won’t be visiting them.

With regard to the “Living Room Doctrine” (if you wouldn’t put up with it in your living-room, you shouldn’t put up with it on your blog), well ... it all depends how tolerant and open-minded your living-room is and how confident you are in your point of view. I’ve been in lots of living-rooms that suddenly turned sensitive when the views being presented no longer agreed with the living-room’s owner. I’ve seen people fake tears and run out of their living-room, up their stairs and into their bedroom, not because they had been genuinely offended by the manner in which things were said, but because they knew they could not defend their point of view and were using fake tears and fake indignation as a means to win the argument.

Needless to say, I did not chase after, or suggest others chase after, these people to console them. My advice was not to return to that living-room since the person was not interested in open and frank debate, only in ensuring their views were agreed with.

When it comes to obviously offensive remarks and behavior, I made this comment on another blog:

“No one likes to hear close-minded, prejudiced people because they don’t have anything interesting to say. If some looney tune comes onto your site and advocates genocide or any other outrageous, ridiculous view, you have nothing to fear. They've made themselves out to be a fool and everyone else will see them exactly for what they are. My view is that people should be allowed to make up their own minds. I don't think censorship is the answer.”

We want to encourage other people with well thought out views to come forward and share them openly without fear of being censored. So my vote is to take no action that in any way discourages free speech. The presentation of someone’s argument matters less to me than the merit of their ideas. Writing rules and regulations solves nothing, neither does getting upset and taking it personally. Obviously offensive bloggers are best ignored or better yet, laughed at. Ridicule is the only attention they deserve.

Posted by Noel Guinane at May 25, 2005 7:00 AM

Sean, I chatted with an older Iranian woman in a store the other day and she was very frustrated about how women are treated in Iran. I suggested blogging as a way to relieve some of the tension, but she was definitely unimpressed!

Iranians in particular seem to prefer personal interaction!

Posted by Noel Guinane at May 25, 2005 7:20 AM

Halley,

Great topic! I went back to your post about the other mothers in your neighborhood and really found it insightful. As the husband of woman who has had similar experiences with other moms in our neightborhood, I think you're really on to something.

Blogging has given a voice to a lot of people who couldn't be heard over "big media". A real opportunity to question things that need questioning, but don't you find it ironic that bloggers who have been given the power through the internets to speak freely are now starting to suggest that their audience's rights to free speech be curtailed?

I think the whole blogosphere is about all of us (bloggers and their audience) having a conversation, not bloggers narrowcasting to the unwashed masses. It's about 2 way communication. I think Joi is brilliant and offers alot to his readers, but I don't agree with everything that he thinks. I appreciate his facilitating a discussion by hosting a blog and certainly think he has a right to remove insanely rude or threatening comments, but is it right for him to be upset with folks that don't march in lock step with him on some issues.

Conversations with others are sometime messy (think of Thanksgiving, significant others, bosses, etc). If some bloggers are not prepared to have their assertions challenged, they need to stay out of the kitchen!!!

Posted by kurt wendelken at May 25, 2005 8:22 AM

Halley - Some of what's happening is a sort of "blogging" by the comment-makers. And, some comments may represent a form of envy by those who read about and see the attention given to bloggers and want that attention for themselves. Not having their own outlet for expression, both types of comment-makers tag on to what others have written as a free way to show the world their views. (Is that what I am doing now?)

The silencing of bloggers because of attacks or negative comments is like silencing someone in a face-to-face conversation who has been ridiculed for their opinions. We don't like to be disliked. We want to believe that what we write or say is valuable and has meaning.

If you write a Letter to the Editor for traditional print media, it may or may not be printed and may be edited before it is printed. Comments are a new form of freedom of expression just like blogging (see Cassandra's comment). Unlike response to an editorial in the traditional press (magazines, newspapers, etc.), there is usually no editor to blog comments.

Whether or not any blogger should restrict comments, though, should be at the blogger's discretion. Although we like to talk about freedom of expression and freedom of speech, that "right" means that I can start my own blog with my own opinions but does not necessarily mean that you, for example, have to allow me to post whatever I want in response to your blogs. In fact, it should be the bloggers choice to allow any comments or not. Because bloggers have attempted to engage in a sort of conversation, they've allowed comments. If you write a book, should everyone be allowed to add their written comments to the book before the book is published? Most would say "No Way" to that but then want any comment to be allowed to a blog.

Hopefully, for you and for other bloggers, this will not deter you. The value that many provide -the broad and frequent availability of thoughts about almost any subject - has expanded available information. No longer do we have to wait for that monthly/weekly magazine or even the daily newspaper to read something of interest. Through certain bloggers, new information is available more often. (That's partially the reason for recent comments asking "where's Tom?".)

Posted by David at May 25, 2005 9:25 AM

David = I like what you say here:

"Some of what's happening is a sort of "blogging" by the comment-makers. And, some comments may represent a form of envy by those who read about and see the attention given to bloggers and want that attention for themselves. Not having their own outlet for expression, both types of comment-makers tag on to what others have written as a free way to show the world their views."

and I would always vote for more people to jump in and create "their own outlet for expression" -- writing their own weblogs to give their voice and life expression.

Don't take my recommendation as a "DON'T COMMENT HERE" policy -- that's not what I mean and I don't make the policy for this site anyway. I just always side with more people representing themselves and their opinions in a full context -- their own blog, with their name and identity revealed -- as well as them taking the time to comment on other blogs.

The problem with a lot of the nasty comments is that either they are anonymous (rather cowardly) or part spam/part opinion or "diss" and that just never furthers the conversation.

[BTW, I like what everyone has to say here -- lively discussion -- very cool.]

Posted by Halley at May 25, 2005 10:14 AM

The remote and, in some cases, anonymous (such as the people here who do not give valid names, email addresses, or even IP addresses) nature of these comments definitely gives people freedom to behave in ways they would not behave in person. And I would not invite many of them into my living room, so, even if they would behave the same in person, they would not have a chance to do so with me. I am in the same place as Joi. I find myself not engaging here as often as I might if all were more civilized. And Noel is one of the most civilized, in my opinion. He can disagree with a point without insulting the person who made it, which should be the standard for all.

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Posted by cathy at May 25, 2005 10:30 AM

Well said Cathy

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 25, 2005 11:09 AM

When Cathy speaks, people listen!

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Posted by Halley at May 25, 2005 12:05 PM

Cathy, you're right. It's only common courtesy to approach someone else's blog as though you are a guest in their house. However, I don't believe it's necessary to legislate what is and is not acceptable. We get more out of people, learn more from what they say, when they are not shackled by conformity, restrained from saying what they truly believe because of pressure from their peers.

Personally, I'd rather hear the plain truth come tumbling out of an old rust bucket than superficial inanities roll smoothly from a silver tongue!

Posted by Noel Guinane at May 25, 2005 1:45 PM

i second cathy, halley and john – and of course noel.
and – from my point of view – the whole blog thing is a double edged sword when you talk about privacy…

why don’t i have my own blog? to my concern, a blog needs swing, things have to go on there, hey… can i do this by myself? lots of you can… lots of you take the time and responsibility. i am not that much into multitasking… i am here today, and gone tomorrow. … sorry to say….

so, for the time being – i prefer to be a – polite – guest.
having said this, i also like straight talk … and i do not hope, that i have offended anyone so far…
i do believe that straight talk adds value to a discussion.

so, why a fake mail-address then? i did not do that always btw… some effect of using a true address was that i got offensive mail.
and: did i like that? not at all … to be honest, i even did not know how to deal with it.

so, for now i make sure that the host of the blog i am posting in has my true address.

but, on the other hand-side, do you actually know that it is ME, who is posting this here?

anybody could speak in my name or in anybody else’s name…

personally i am also a member of a “gated” internet community – everybody knows who you are – and the management has got a pretty clever way of identifying fakes – i think some guy of gawker.com had been in there once… for two days.
but the discussions are nothing like those on tompeters.com, except maybe if you happen to be very much into euro-trash adventures :)….

what i want to say is: the nature of blogging as we know it is about anonymity.
full points to joi ito.

it is about the substance that you feel. and probably about nothing else.

Posted by jens at May 25, 2005 4:01 PM

This is a great discussion with loads of common sense.

Using a variation of one of TP speeches;

"Spend time with anonymous people and thou shalt become anonymous"

Spend time with people with something important to say and thou shalt have something important to say"

Warm regards from England - Liverpool Football Club just won the European Champions League Final after being 3-0 down at half time.

I know many of my American friends will not be particularly intrested in that soccer news but believe me it is a great achievement for an English team. So well done Liverpool :-)

Keep smiling

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 25, 2005 7:00 PM

Well said Trevor, Jens, Noel, et. al. I kind of agree though with the tone of Dr. TP for this website blog: radical, confrontational, fun, innovative, WOW-like, creative, futuristic, competitive.

The natural tension here is due to Dr. T's/Steves aggressiveness vs. the female bloggers' style of "in the home" communication.

The PRIVACY Issue is an interesting one - I deal in cyber privacy and preventing identity theft [rampant and growing] ... so I encourage privacy / restricting e-mail, phone, etc.

Thanks TP company for one of the best blogs of all time.

Posted by Sean at May 26, 2005 5:55 AM

Do your shit. Be yourself. Blog like crazy. Don't worry. This ain't Baghdad.

Posted by tom peters at May 27, 2005 3:33 AM

Tom = You're right. There's no going back, is there? Damn the torpedos! Halley

Posted by Halley at May 27, 2005 4:35 AM

Here Here Halley

Why should we be frightened or feel threatend by writing down our true and honest opnions?

Surely it is better to just give your truthful opinion from the heart and accept that eveyone will not agree.

I beleive we are all sensitve to criticism (or we are liars) so when we get the inevitable disagreement, it might be as well for us to remember The Eagles track "Get Over It"

This quote crossed my desk the other day - I like it;

"Honesty is never seen sitting astride the fence." Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays, 1911

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 27, 2005 5:06 AM

The late May Bank Holiday weekend is almost upon us and the weather looks set for a warm one!

Posted by Trevor at May 27, 2005 5:53 AM