Comments

what absolute tripe
Bliars legacy will be only about spin, soundbites and following the latest media hype
he has achieved nothing for Britain... except getting the economy totally indebted and wiping out the manufacturing sector.
he is only trying to build a platform for his next career and wiil exit UK government leaving another sucker to try and sort out the mess he has left behind.
the biggest con man in uk political history.
good riddance

Posted by neil sullivan at July 1, 2005 3:06 PM

Wow Neil - next time maybe you won't pull your punches quite so much :-)

I disagree with you entirely but that is what Blogging is all about.

I think Tony Blair will be remembered as one of the greatest British and world leaders ever.

He is a modern leader for modern times.

He has forced compromise on many things such as the tragic Northern Ireland situation that had dragged on for years. I like the fact that people there are not killing each other and blowing each other up not least because Tony Blair helped to get people from opposite sides talking to each other.

I like the fact that Tony Blair has been a world statesman in leading the fight against terrorism.

I like the fact that he has radically developed the National Health Service by putting money where his mouth is and then asking healthcare managers in the NHS to deliver with the extra money they have - if they can't deliver then don't blame Mr Blair.

I suspect Tony Blair is well liked and better understood in America - more than in his own back yard but I am a staunch supporter of Mr Blair and I believe history will record his achievements favourably.

Great topic Richard

Have a lovely weekend all.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 1, 2005 5:14 PM

Neil, we're currently discussing ID cards for Britain in a few threads below this one titled 'Confidence' and I'm curious to know what your opinion on them is.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 1, 2005 5:14 PM

Trevor - "...one of the greatest British and world leaders ever..." ?!?! I've agreed with you on quite a few things in past blogs but I think you're a million miles out on this one. He's mediocre at best.

Firstly, he hasn't wiped out the manufacturing sector, as per Neil above. That started in the 70's and has rumbled on since. You can't blame Mr. Blair for that one.

I'd sum him up as an opportunity lost. After sweeping into power in '97 with a massive vote, he started well by handing control of interest rates to the Bank of England but then pretty much wasted the rest of his first term. Witness that awful performance at the following election - err, well, sorry, tricky business, government, had some targets - promised 5 but delivered 2 - promise to do better in my second term, trust me, blah blah.

Then he spent all his residual credibility on Iraq: right action but totally and utterly the wrong "justification": blown credibility.

Now in his 3rd term, he realises that taxation has gone up, public expenditure has gone up, central control has increased, public service remains a joke and England is in rebellion. His only hope of a favourable footnote in history is in the spurious "war on poverty" (where he typically just wants to throw money at a problem with little thought about targeted or conditional spending) and unwinnable "wars on terrorism".

From what everyone says, he's undoubtedly a nice and well-meaning guy. However, there's no disguising the fact that he is a very mediocre PM. He could have made a difference: instead, he's wasted public money, dragged his own office into disrepute and been too timid. Mrs. Thatcher was widely disliked but everyone knew what she stood for and where she was taking us. Mr. Blair simply wants to be liked and will, unless he changes in his last months in office, will be remembered for spin, lack of accountability and fear of upsetting public opinion, rather than the ability to set it.

Posted by Mark JF at July 1, 2005 6:06 PM

The PM Blair watch though is solid in that radical liberalism/socialism may never survive in the UK - relief to many in the free enterprise sector ...

Iraq - Afghanistan/Pakistan - the Islamofascists would love to WMD the UK/EU/Russians - and Blair has the courage to make the right calls - while Schroeder/Chirac "lead" to 3rd world status.

The liberals would love to take you back to 96% marginal tax rates - Blair understands economics and hopefully strongly influences who the next PM is.

Posted by Sean at July 1, 2005 6:47 PM

Mark, I agree. I think Mr. Blair went into politics for personal glory and while a person's motivation for doing something doesn't matter so much to me once he does a good job, I don't think he has.

His smile cracks a little now when he is on TV and he won't let the 'public' get anywhere near him. The starry-eyed quality to him when he started out has over time turned jaded and in my view he now resents the public who elected him.

I think history will record his efforts in much the same way as a company records those of a promising but ineffective corporate CEO - in a dusty archive box buried behind some old notice boards in the back of the records room.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 2, 2005 3:26 AM

Rich - "wonderful Live 8 at its tackiest" is more like it - every 30 years or so the dino fossils emerge not for the poor and desolute in the UK/EU - rather Africa dictator support. The Swiss Roger takes Wimbledon and Swiss bank accounts take Live 8.

Posted by Sean at July 2, 2005 1:38 PM

Wonderful feedback Guys and obviously I am in a minority here .... ouch!!

Never mind I stick by my belief that Tony Bliar will be recorded in history as a great leader.

This man has won three general elections and has dragged the labour party up from a pathetic lost party to a three and probably unique four term government - he must be doing somwething right in leadership.

Posted by Trevor at July 3, 2005 3:11 AM

HEY TREVOR...

I'm with you. I do believe that Tony Blair is a brilliant leader.

Record at merging cultures:
First he transformed the labour party to New Labour - which took up parts of the Conservatives agenda, and mixed it up with old fashioned Labour's care for the disadvantaged. This when seen in comparison to George Bush's transformation of the Republican party (I'll leave out details here .. :-) is absolutely brilliant.

Record at economic growth:
Shrewdly partnering with Gordon Brown, Blair helped continue the transformation of the UK from a manufacturing country to a services country. Needless to say, a services (experiences?) economy is the only one that would work long term in a high cost/high price country like the UK.

War on terror:
The UK has paid more than its fair share in the war on terror, but look at what the benefits of it have been.. No matter which government comes up in the US, the UK will get special treatment, in terms of contracts, joint development of economic efforts abroad and so on. Besides, the UK will stand to gain a sizeable benefit from the "payoff" on the "War against Saddam" in terms of reconstruction contracts, oil field developments etc not just in Iraq, but also in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the UAE etc.

Aid to Africa:
Imagine if the company you work with could wipe out 60% of it's debt in a stroke. If you owned stock in it, the value of your holdings would increase by 100/40. Couple that with increased accountability, and you might well have a winning formula. Now see that impact writ over an entire country... Imagine then Re-imagine!

I think Prime Minister Blair has done quite well indeed. I for one would love to shake his hand.

Arun

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at July 3, 2005 4:15 AM

Trevor - was that a deliberate mis-spelling of the PM's name?! Or was there a nagging doubt at the back of your mind...

I have to say that his winning 3 and maybe 4 elections has a lot to do with the poor quality of the opposition. In fairness, that was also the case with the Tories when they went 18 years in power but I think it's no great achievment to say you won a certain number of elections against unelectable opposition. This isn't sport and, "You can only play against whoever they put up against you": this is real life. Winning 3 elections and woefully under-delivering does not a great PM make!

Posted by Mark JF at July 3, 2005 4:29 AM

Thanks Arun – looks like you and me against the world my friend.

I love that comment Mark - No it wasn’t a spelling mistake but it made me laugh when I re-read my own posting!

I am not suggesting Tony Blair walks on water - he is a human being with just the same frailties and vulnerabilities as all of us. I just happen to believe that he has all the characteristics of a great leader. He listens - he takes notice - he relates to all types of people and he has focus and determination.

As regards winning against poor opposition I agree with you on that. The Tories are about as powerful as ice in the desert.

That still does not take away the credit Mr Blair is due for transforming the Labour party and making it first of all electable. Then re-electable for a second and third time.

The greatest leaders in history always had critics and enemies but for instance I think Tony Blair far outshines Margaret Thatcher in terms of modern day leaders and I will allow historians to be the final arbiters of whether he is or is not a great leader.

The most wonderful thing about this Blog is that I can disagree with you guys but still feel we are good friends.

Great discussion

Posted by Trevor at July 3, 2005 3:26 PM

Tony Blair has charm. He is eloquent. He can win elections, but these things are not enough to make someone a great leader and leave no meaningful imprint on history.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 3, 2005 4:04 PM

fuck him...

Posted by davidcoe... at July 3, 2005 6:04 PM

PM Blair though is like a doctor - 1st do no harm. He professionally plays the hand dealt him = and what a class act compared to the low IQ idiot twins of Chirac/Schroeder. Plus he is smart to ally with the USA - I suggest the UK and Canada should become part of the USA - we can use the talent and you all can use the cash and radical free enterprise new muscle. "Too much money - the surprising consequences of a global savings glut" BusinessWeek July 11: amazingly the USA/free world may be saving too much - need UK advice ...

The USA/UK PM Blair privacy issues and Iris/ID cards are a challenge though - the free world is infested with radical Islamofascists - how to screen them out and terminate their lazy fat backsides without infringing on others - such the dilemma. Make it a reality show I say - chop their ugly greasy heads on live pay TV ... [simulated of course] ...

Posted by Sean at July 3, 2005 6:56 PM

Trevor - I half agree with you over Mr. Blair's transforming of the labour party. He was strong over Clause 4, so credit there. It was also an excellent gesture, symbolising a clean break with the past - even though there are still a few old Labourites (including some in government) who seem to hanker after the old days.

But this also shows one of the problems with Mr. Blair: the initiative, bravery and vision to reform was really lead by Neil Kinnock and the late John Smith - Mr. Blair simply carried it on. And when you look at Labour's much-vaunted economic stability, BoE decision apart, it initially came direct from the policies and actions of the last Conservative PM, John Major, that Mr. Blair followed for his first 2+ years in government. Now, of course, he's reverted to a stealth "tax and spend" policy.

So in many respects, Mr. Blair is a good manager and implementer of other people's ideas. He's not nearly so good on formulating, expounding and winning support for his own ideas.

Posted by Mark JF at July 4, 2005 2:32 AM

Brilliant comments Mark. You make many valid points.

Who says great leaders have original ideas?

Most great leaders in history will probably have simply developed 'other people’s ideas.'

There are very very few truly original thinkers

I have no doubt that the re-organisation of the Labour party was initially led by Neil Kinnock and John Smith.

In fact Mr. Kinnock is a wonderful man with high integrity and was greatly misunderstood. Sadly he suffered due to image problems. The magnificent speech Mr. Kinnock made at the Labour party conference in the late 80’s taking on directly Derek Hatton and the far left was one of the highlights of my whole ‘political watching’ for the last 30 years.

The wonderful thing Mr. Blair has done is learn about the mistakes of Neil Kinnock as regards image and made the most of his greatest attributes.

I still hold the view Mr. Blair is a great modern leader for modern times

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 4, 2005 4:09 AM

seems to be a love/hate relationship england has with tony blair... and tony blair seems to have with his job.

well, that is much more positive than anything one could say about his still german counterpart. schroeder only loves himself - but the days of solo-dancing are over - no more saturday night fever in berlin - no amazed crowds anymore - germany had its share of being just that little bit italian - but that is over now. do your last turn, show-chancelor! one last glance into the mirror. the party is over. the lights are out. the press has gone. you are alone. one last turn - come one! just for yourself. just because you like it so much.

tony blair obviously is a different kind of guy. he is good for different public projections.
do you remember the 2002 movie "love actually" where hugh grant played the british prime minister?
he was this guy who had played with the wrong friends and had made some strange political decissions - but he was good at heart. so finally - despite his job - despite all the preasure - he finds his true self again and dares to opose his close allies who thought he was just a puppet on the string.
blair's g8 initiative on now looks like the prime minister really fell in love with the role some movie writer had scripted for hugh grant.

you'r a good boy, tony.
after all.
your country loves you.

Posted by jens at July 4, 2005 5:53 AM

Great stuff Jens - now there are at least three of us in the world who think Tony Blair has some good points!!

Isn't it just great to be in a minority? - The power of a consistent minority can change the world :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 4, 2005 6:09 AM

Blair/Brown have been the cornerstone of this success story. The rest of the ministers I have less regard for. The one radical bit of economic reform (control of interest rates to Bank of England) happened a long time ago. I get a bit sick of this idea being brought out time and time again by commentators

Interesting that both Tory and Labour have managed long office terms due partly to very substandard opposition. Question is - is it healthy to stay in so long?

Is it healthy for managers in business as well as politics to stay "in office" for the long term?!

Posted by PaulH at July 4, 2005 6:33 AM

I don't think giving Labour a new appealing face is much of a success story; I mean that's nice and all, but for the millions of people who are not die-hard Labourites, it kind of provokes a so what? reaction.

It's necessary to have a long stretch to achieve big results in business or politics, but it's possible to confuse what constitutes 'results' more easily in politics than in a business. In a business, or at least in a well run business, no one is confused, least of all the owners.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 4, 2005 8:36 AM

It goes without saying that the re-branding and subsequent election of the Labour party was an important moment in British politics. Their time in opposition had been ineffective and was hindered by an anachronistic image and outdated policies. Bair remodelled the Labour party and formed a viable and attractive alternative to the incumbents. To win office, the conservatives will have to do the same, and they'll need a leader of Blair's marketing vision to make it happen.

In the meantime, the Liberal Democrats are gaining ground. This is better for everyone: a three party system is healthier.

Assuming Blair fails to make significant headway with environmental issues (including convincing Mr Bush to take action) and the Conservatives fail to find 'Mr' or Mrs Right', then maybe by the time we get to the next general election, Blair's ultimate gift to the British electorate may actually be a four party system, with more people than ever voting Green.

Posted by Matt at July 4, 2005 10:09 AM

Matt, I'd like to believe that. I worked for the Green Party long enough to realize that their policies are not practical; well intentioned, but not practical.

The truth is that in UK politics, none of the parties inspire at the moment.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 4, 2005 10:58 AM

Hear Hear Noel

Even the monster raving loony party has lost it's edge!

Posted by PaulH at July 4, 2005 11:25 AM

That's it Paul. They're all 'playing politics'!

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 4, 2005 3:39 PM

Briliant Paul

To our American friends The Monster Raving Looney Party had a manifesto as follows for our recent General Election:

Overview

Our team of experts has decided that Income Tax has not proved popular with the public and will therefore be abolished. It was started in order to finance the Napoleonic war in 1799 and we now believe that the time is right to announce the cessation of hostilities with Napoleon. Some of the money left in the coffers will be used to fill in our part of the Channel Tunnel in case no one has mentioned it to the French. Any remaining money will be strategically placed on a horse at the 3-30 at Haydock Park at odds of at least 12/1 in order to see us through until the next election. Income Tax will be officially replaced by people lending the government a bob or two at the end of the week when we’re a bit skint.

Other policies:

We will issue a 99p coin to save on change.

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party will not join the single European currency. We will invite all Europeans countries to JOIN THE POUND.

Rich people should be taxed to pay for the printing of money, as they use most of it.

Tax credits will be paid to nice people. There will be a “total bastard” tax for everyone else.

http://www.omrlp.com/

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 4, 2005 3:42 PM

Trevor, that had me in stitches, particularly the last bit - at least now I know why I'm paying so much income tax!

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 4, 2005 3:48 PM

I hope Tony Blair goes down as one of the greatest modern leaders in UK, European history. He was one of the few that had a spine to stand up to the evils in the middle east and terrorism.

Posted by Charles Simmons at July 4, 2005 6:53 PM

I love it too Noel :-)

It sounds a great manifesto - maybe you Paul and me should sign up as new members?!! :-)

Hey Charles!!! - I'm with you - Tony Blair is a man of great integrity, passion and strength.

You, me and Jens now - three against the world my friend!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 5, 2005 2:04 AM

For me, Tony Blair has been an excellent leader. There are many things I may not agree with but there are many things too to admire. As an immigrant, I am particularly appreciative of the fact that his policies have allowed myself and many like myself to build skills, experiencs and careers that we find highly rewarding both to us and to Britain Plc. I appreciate that this is one of the most welcoming of the Western nations and that I am afforded opportunity based simply on my ability. And not on my nationality or ethnicity.
I appreciate that now, Tony Blair seems to be making a concerted effort to address the catastrophic conditions to be found in my motherland.(Africa)
Go Tony!!

Posted by fredd at July 5, 2005 5:19 AM

Wonderful Fredd - thank you so much for that testimonial to Tony Blair. I agree with you of course.

Now there are four of us who are fans of Tony! .. The beginning of a real movement here :-) ...just joking guys

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 5, 2005 6:24 AM

According to Jacques Chirac, Tony Blair's legacy will be mad cow disease. Oh and by the way, he also said that the UK can't be trusted because it has the worst cuisine after Finland. See the 'Frog Fight' thread on Buzz Machine.

http://www.buzzmachine.com/

Now there's a man with traditional political views!

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 5, 2005 6:31 AM

Can't see what all the fuss is about can you Noel? :-)

There is NOTHING AS GOOD AS GOOD OLD BRITISH Roast Beef, Yorkshire Pudding and two vegetables for Sunday lunch - what do you say?

Mr Chirac should maybe try some - he might just break into a smile for the first time in five years.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 5, 2005 6:47 AM

I suspect Rich is anti-Blair.

Speaking of modern leadership: The TP site is missing the boat - a bit low energy lately - nothing on Independence Day July 4th - and nothing on Sandra Day O'Conners' replacement on the Supreme Court ...

Posted by Sean at July 5, 2005 7:20 AM

Trevor, if you'll throw in a bottle of decent wine, say Chateau d'Yquem 1787, and put me, the Mrs. and my five appendages up for a couple months, I'm in total agreement with you.

Sean, I was thinking the same thing myself - probably in a quiet period on account of the holiday.

And you know, I really think we should get back to the point here, okay? No more of this wandering off subject talking about Sunday dinners. I mean, really ... the nerve of some people!

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 5, 2005 8:20 AM

No I think we need to talk about sunday lunch for a bit longer!

Yes French cuisine is fantastic. But there is two things us Brits do a whole lot better. (and with a lot less pretension)

1) Breakfast - No better way to start the day than the Full English

2) Pudding. The whole world raves about pathetic, delicate desserts. No, real pudding is stodgy filling and utterly moorish. Fruit Crumbles, with lashings of custard - can't be beaten. I will refrain from mentioning spotted dick as it might get misunderstood!

Posted by PaulH at July 5, 2005 10:10 AM

Blast - I wish I hadn't posted that I feel hungry now!

Posted by PaulH at July 5, 2005 10:11 AM

wish i had not read this.
ruined my appetite for the rest of the day.

lots of wonderful things can be said about the british cuisine. jamie oliver said most of them.

but engrrrrlssshhh brkfst! yakkkk - watery sausages and greazy eggs - ugh! - artificially coloured orange juice - wow, that looks real orange! - and, i do not dare to say it: t e a
... not to mention toast with that bitter marmelade...

i love england dearly and for many things, but please, would nobody ever remind me of english breakfast and pudding again.
:)

else i might have to change my mind eventually.

Posted by jens at July 5, 2005 10:26 AM

ALERT JENS! DO NOT READ THIS POST!

Yep, I've been living on English breakfasts and pudding/trifle desserts for years now. Not a diet I would recommend to everyone though, unless of course you naturally possess as I do the muscular, trim figure of a Grecian sculpture which neither age nor pudding can wither.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 5, 2005 10:50 AM

I now feel totally justified and vindicated in posting my thoughts about Roast Beef and Yorkshire puddings - this slight deviation from subject has generated more interest than the serious question originally asked by Richard about my hero Tony Blair!!!

Actually I have just looked back to the very beginning of these 38 comments to find Neil mentioned in the first line of the first comment the word 'tripe' - another English delicacy - tripe and onions!!

I guess in the absence of anything more interesting, this discussion will continue to deteriorate. We will soon be discussing fish and chips ... now that does make my mouth water ... :-)

You American folks must you simply must learn about fish and chips ... NO NO NO THEY ARE NOT FRENCH FRIES PLEASE - THEY ARE CHIPS!!!!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 5, 2005 11:15 AM

Jens what you are describing is a BADLY COOKED English breakfast - alas all too readily available.

Interestingly you offered no view on black pudding? A great breakfast delicacy

Posted by PaulH at July 5, 2005 11:24 AM

Apparently the Chinese are in love with Kentucky Fried Chicken and most of the rest of USA exports of: McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King, Starbucks, et. al.

I wonder what PM Blair thinks about that? [Kind of a lame attempt to connect with this blog.]

Once president Clinton was in Santa Fe [2000] and had a Mexican place stay open 'til 2 am local time for him - which was 4 am Whitehouse time - no wonder he later needed bypass surgery!

Hopefully Mr. Blair is wiser!

Posted by Sean at July 5, 2005 11:39 AM

But under Mr. Blair, the price of fish and chips has risen 112% and the quality has gone inexorably down! It's another example of his inept management of the British cuisine... it's no good blaming Brussels for chip regulations or Spanish fishermen stealing the best cod... it's happened on his watch and he should resign!

Is there no honour left in public life...?!

Posted by Mark JF at July 5, 2005 2:46 PM

Ye gads - this started life as a rather intelligent and sensible blog. What do our American friends make of this (i.e. Mr. Blair's legacy + maybe a few comments on the weird British and Irish humour above) after a long 4 July weekend?

Posted by Mark JF at July 5, 2005 2:48 PM

Hi Mark

Now come on!!

You just cannot get away with blaming my beloved Tony for everything.

Under Mr Blair's leadership the quality of the average British Rail Pork Pie has definitely improved beyond measure - this proves he was right to de-regulate the railways! :-)

By the way, thank you for reminding me this is an American Blog

I hope our friends over the water do not think we (Noel, Paul, Mark and Trevor) represent the average mentality of the British citizen ... NO NO NO we are the intelligent ones!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 5, 2005 3:16 PM

Mark, I'd suggest that our American friends are in no position to comment considering they invented, eat and export, to quote another blogger whose name escapes me at the moment, the "haute cuisine of the human race" - McDonald's.

Trevor, if only one could afford to ride on the trains to eat those delectable British Rail pork pies, though I heartily agree with your reference to our mentality since it appeals to my vanity. I just have to remember not to accidentally turn sideways and catch a glimpse of my sharp-nosed (okay, big nosed) reflection in the dusty window of the train 'unexpectedly' stalled between stations as I sneak off in my fake conductor's uniform, a lumpy sack of pork pies slung casually over my shoulder, to make my getaway across an abandoned nettled field. Oh, if only I had remembered to wear my fake conductor's blue polyester socks!

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 5, 2005 4:55 PM

Many Asians like American fast food Chicken, like KFC.

Jacques Chirac shoudn't talk about legacys. His is going to be worse than Bush. Bush and Blair at least have spines and do their jobs. Chirac isn't smart enough to comment about Finnish or anyone elses food.

The only reason I would ever bother passing through France for French speaking parts of Canada, where I live, is to take a dump.

Posted by Charles Simmons at July 5, 2005 8:44 PM

and the olympics 2012 go to..

the home of the world's best newspaper.

the home of the world's best shoe-makers, shirt-makers and tailors.

the home of punk, pop and... what do i know...

the home of the world's weirdest and truest royal family.

the home of the world's best indian restaurants.

the home of the modern world's lingua franca (the russian leader gave his address in english today - or was it american?)

where to get viagra in canada

the home of the world's best maior.

the home of the world's most idiotic millenium architecture and the home of the best museum building.

...

hurray!

Posted by jens at July 6, 2005 8:04 AM

Thanks Jens!!!

We Brits are a little bit pleased today :-)

I am not one to crow but my sincere and heartfelt symptahty (ot) goes to Mr Chirac ..... heheheheh ...enjoy your French cuisine tonight Mr
Chirac - we Brits will be tucking into our Fish and Chips with a smile

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 6, 2005 8:11 AM

right, trevor, let's drink on jacques chirac tonight.

he had his fair share in bringing the games to england.

Posted by jens at July 6, 2005 8:48 AM

I've got a few pork pies going cheap ...

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 6, 2005 10:38 AM

My previous comment felt so good I just have to repeat it Noel - save a pork pie for me please:-)

Thanks Jens!!!

We Brits are a little bit pleased today :-)

I am not one to crow but my sincere and heartfelt symptahty (NOT) goes to Mr Chirac ..... heheheheh ...enjoy your French cuisine tonight Mr
Chirac - we Brits will be tucking into our Fish and Chips with a smile

IT FEELS EVEN BETTER SECOND TIME AROUND!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 6, 2005 10:57 AM

Noel - I thought pork pies go "oink". It's chicken sandwiches that go, "cheap" !!!!

Posted by Mark JF at July 6, 2005 10:58 AM

There is just nothing like the British sense of humour Mark!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 6, 2005 11:14 AM

trevor, i accepted your mistake the first time. but now i have to correct you: chance are pretty low for chirac to enjoy french cusine tonight.
more likely going to be haggis.... :)

Posted by jens at July 6, 2005 11:16 AM

oh, before i forget...

2012 will also be the year of queen elizabeth's diamond jubilee.

here is to the good health of QEII!

cheers.

Posted by jens at July 6, 2005 11:46 AM

and more news from this funny day:

"landwind" - first chinese SUVs arrived in the netherlands via ferry today. being sold for 17.000 euros each www.landwind.com that is 8times the price that is asked for in china.

spd - german socialist party of still-chancellor schroeder presented new corporate design today: the traditional red, accompanied by black and white is being joined by an earthy light brown as accent colour. party spokesman said "experts found that light brown would be the perfect colour to transmit the values of the new course".
www.spd.de

we do not know which experts the reigning german party is reffering to - but to be honest: now they have got exactly the colour sceme of some other historic german socilalist party - which actually used the prefix "national" in its name...

Posted by jens at July 6, 2005 12:34 PM

Trevor - we're going to disagree again but... The Olympic win again demonstrates why Mr. Blair is not a particularly good leader. The real work was done by Seb Coe, and what a fantastic job he's done. He took on the role amid confusion and panic after Barbara Casani suddenly left and turned it around. He's built and motivated a great team around him. His final speech to the committee was inspirational.

Credit to Mr. Blair for giving it 3 days at the end and for backing the bid. This, however, was pure management - something Mr. Blair is good at. The leadership came from Seb Coe.

Mr. Blair can bask in the glory (Seb's glory really) today. I suspect that by 2012 Mr. Blair's contribution - which has been very good - will be put in context and Seb Coe will be recognised as the real leader who pulled this one off.

Posted by Mark JF at July 6, 2005 12:59 PM

Great win for London. Really looking forward to it. Very happy indeed. Hope you don't mind if I respond on the pork pie issue. Just to say that those pork pies that have recently come into my possession not only "oink" and "cheep", they "moo" too. In fact, they're so good they remind me of British Rail's timetable which is to say they are simply not to be believed.

And no, they do not remind me of Tony Blair. For one thing, they're meatier. Drawing that comparison would be a really cheap shot.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 6, 2005 1:41 PM

I love our disagreements Mark :-)

I hear what you say about Seb Coe and I agree with you totally that Seb was the driver of all this ... and don't forget his fabulous team.

One of the greatest attributes of a really effective leader is selection of the right people to do the job and then let them get on and do it ... so I would say Tony Blair once again exhibited excellent leadership skills in choosing Seb and letting him do the business.

And Noel - you must lay off those BR Pork Pies - try the BR all day breakfast greasy, fatty and soggy - wonderful British cuisine:-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 7, 2005 2:24 AM

Trevor, all British food is breakfast or rather, all British food including breakfast is lunch.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 7, 2005 2:55 AM

Jens, haven't had the pleasure of eating a UK school dinner though my children did briefly and now we send them in with food from home. I hope Jamie Oliver's campaign succeeds in improving the quality of food children eat in UK schools. From what I can gather, it's all sugar.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 7, 2005 6:13 AM

Just heard about the explosions on the London Underground and on a bus. Many people dead and seriously injured. To think there are people somewhere who are proud of what they've done, as if it is an accomplishment. It's easy to destroy. Much harder to build. It would be much better for everyone if the people involved channeled that organization and planning into improving the lives of the people around them, even those they are supposedly 'fighting' for.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 7, 2005 6:20 AM

Hi Noel - I am watching this horror now on TV as it all unfolds.

I was in central London on business last week and thought to myself then how vulnerable we all are to attacks like this .... apalling and cowardly.

After yesterday euphoria about the Olympics coming to my great country this reminds us all about how life is a constant challenge.

My thoughts and and prayers are with all those affected :-(

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 7, 2005 6:26 AM

"On Wednesday Londoners danced and celebrated the success of their Olympic bid. A day later and the mood of jubilation is already extinguished. The bombs, were assumably timed to coincide with the G8. In Gleneagles - the one place where all police attention has been focused - the comment had all been about Tony Blair’s triumphant two months, the prime minister as the comeback kid, the man who is trying to save Africa’s straving hordes, the man who brought home the Olympics - one can only speculate as the impact on that vote had these outrages been a day earlier. Now he was speeding back to London to see the carnage first hand and suddenly mired once more in the consquences of those foreign policy decisions he was rather hoping to have left behind. Britain’s feelgood factor lasted about as long as one of its summers. "

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Posted by jens at July 7, 2005 10:06 AM

Ghastly business. Our thoughts and prayers are with those who have lost loved ones.

This morning we have got back onto the trains, tubes etc. Sad yes, a little nervous yes, subdued yes but also quietly determined not to give in.

Normality is the most powerful weapon we have against this foe.

Tony B showed this. Yes straight down to London. Emergency meetings and to be where a leader should be. But then back to the G8 and working hard on progress for Africa. We will not take our eyes of the ball and we will not be distracted from our aims to help make this world a better place.

Posted by PaulH at July 8, 2005 3:42 AM

UK friends - massive prayers for the heroes/innocents of London - and prayers for the angels of death to speed the crusade to kill terror/terrorists with renewed efficiency and vengence - dare to be spiritual on the TP secular site ...

Please make sure the EU/Russian politicians do their part. 30 EU terror attempts discovered/terminated since 9/11 = success - raid mosque infestations ...

20 million muslims in EU though - many adverse to assimilation according to "analysts". 3 million in USA - 50% in prison as Malcolm X clone islam conversions.

Create more Gitmos - imprison more islamfascists - precise quality success ... take their $billions and award to innocents' relatives ...

Posted by Sean at July 8, 2005 4:41 AM

brand viagra buy I've been bemused and fascinated reading all this - how the initial thread - regarding Blair's legacy - degenerated into a lot of nonsense about British food (which has improved dramatically in the last ? 20 years and - certainly as served in restaurants - is streets ahead of the French - then a little bit of schadenfreude regarding the Olympic triumph over Paris/Chirac (OK I enjoyed that!) and then of course the change of tone as the awful events of Wednesday unfolded in London.

I am not a Blair supporter - indeed I've been a Conservative all my life - but you cannot deny that Blair has shown considerable leadership over the past few days. Whether he has always used his talents in the best way is another matter, but talents he clearly has. Cometh the hour, cometh the man, and the co-incidence of Britain's G8/EU Presidency, the Make Poverty History Campaign, the climax of the 2012 Olympics race and the latest terrorist outrages on home soil, has seen Blair doing many of the right things.

Will Africa, or the War on Terror, or even improved school dinners be his legacy? I doubt it, but there is no doubt that we will look back on his era and reflect on unprecedented prosperity (delivered by the Tories but sustained by New Labour) and a time when, contrary to the concerns/expectations of many, the hard-won progress of the Thatcher decade in modernising Britain was built upon & extended.

I worry about over-regulation of businesses, over-taxation of individuals, and the over-weening control freakery of this government - but I know I am lucky to be living in an era of prosperity, stability and achievement - and, as in business, we must surely give credit to our leader for at least making all this not impossible!

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 9, 2005 4:31 AM

Stephen, I suspect the UK economy is less fundamentally sound than we might think. There's a lot of debt, personal and business, fueling the good times. I'm waiting for a couple of bubbles to burst and while I think we will absorb them, it will involve more pain than we're prepared to handle. When I look at Western economies I consider them fragile and easily susceptible to a loss of confidence. Considering the global times we live in, I think Blair and Brown's management of the economy will go down in history as having been not too sound. Their stewardship in my opinion is going to come back to bite us. Let's hope America's economy stays strong.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 7:44 AM

Noel,

I don't disagree with you that the good times may not last much longer - nor for that matter does the US budget deficit bode well in the bigger picture.

So - if the original question concerned Blair's legacy - then it may well not be the economy (just as Thatcher's legacy, for all the progress made in transforming Britain from the 'sick man of Europe', is currently seen as the splitting of the Tory party, the Poll Tax (a fair but disastrously upopular local tax) and the 'Boom & Bust' economic cycle) - so, what will Blair's legacy be?

I have to reiterate that stability is something we have been fortunate enough to enjoy in the UK for around two decades, largely under two formidable leaders, despite theoretically coming from two opposing political persuasions. And our economy has been well run for much of that time. If that doesn't go on forever - well, devotees of this website should not be surprised by that! The end of the road for one leader though does not - and should not - always define their legacy.

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 10, 2005 6:57 AM

Hopefully part of the legacy is a radical aggressive effort to rid mosques and hideouts of the infestation of islamofascism. The UK must not be a gateway to terror because of lack of intel/effort/resolve to kill terrorists. The UK should create its own set of Gitmos to mitigate/prevent more strikes.

Posted by Sean at July 10, 2005 8:07 AM

Stephen, we are very lucky. No question and it's unfortunate that many of us don't realize it, but if you're looking for a long-term legacy, it's not enough to just maintain things (if indeed that is what you really do and major problems left for others to sort out are not discovered after you've gone).

In my view, if you're running a business or a government and do not really build on the solid foundations you inherited (if you are lucky enough to inherit them) or lead people in new directions, you at least want to be able to manage what's entrusted to you well so that when you pass from the scene, what you're handing over to others is sound, both financially and administratively, which I believe Blair will probably not achieve.

In fairness to him, I think he was very well intentioned when he set out.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 10, 2005 3:20 PM

Noel,

I think he actually has built on the foundations he inherited - Britain's standing in the world is arguably the highest it's been for 50 years, our economy is strong (and let's face it, economic debates tend to be futile as they consist of varying levels of informed speculation!), devolution has brought new or restored parliaments to Wales, Scotland and (if they want it enough) Northern Ireland, and people on the whole have more reasons to be contented with their lot than ever before.

I admit I'm rather surprised to find myself defending Blair, since on the whole I disapprove of many of his actions (I won't say policies because he doesn't really seem to have those), but I have to contend that (a) his legacy will be on balance positive, and (b) he is a considerable leader.

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 11, 2005 3:23 AM

People have very short memories.

The Labour party was a joke when Tony Blair became leader despite the valiant efforts of Neil Kinnock and the late John Smith.

Remember everyone felt Labour were un-electable in the early 1990's.

Tony Blair’s leadership and consistency and his statesmanship have emerged many times during his Premiership. Looking for reasons to criticise him is I guess the par for the course and indeed typical of our culture in Britain. Put someone on top and let the press and media knock them down. It happens in sport, entertainment and politics.

Tony Blair has been a model leader in terms of integrity and we should be proud of that - he has restored ethics to previously laughable and scandal ridden British politics under the Tories.

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Posted by Trevor Gay at July 11, 2005 5:09 AM

Why would anyone want to be a leader--political or otherwise? All you get is a ridiculous work schedule, enemies and competitors behind every postal box, and everyone from the cat to your late Aunt Bessie is positive that not only are you always wrong, but that you could never have become a leader in the first place if it weren't for some kind of fraud or accident.

Posted by Mike at July 11, 2005 8:48 AM

Sorry, Trevor,

But if there's one thing Blair & his government have not been a model of, it's integrity and consistency - look at the problems which started at the beginning of his first administration with Formula One Boss Bernie Ecclestone & tobacco sponsorship, continued with his clinging to unreliable colleagues such as Peter Mandelson, the way he undoubtedly misled the public and Parliament over the reasons for going to war in Iraq - even just the other week his wife was charging a fat fee for sharing insights into life with the PM, whilst accompanying him on official business in the US!

I have to say I'm delighted to be back where I feel more comfortable - lamenting the truly appalling way Tony and his cronies have ridden roughshod over the electorate - but at the end of the day the public know a winner when they see one, and they don't have to love him to vote for him. Ditto Maggie T., ditto, dare I say, George W.?!

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 11, 2005 8:59 AM

Thanks Stephen

The joy of TP Blog is the ability to remain friends - I hope - and yet disagree :-)

Food for thought - I am sure you will have seen this before:

It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts. Here are the facts about the three candidates.

Candidate A - Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two Mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.

Candidate B - He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.

Candidate C - He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.

Which of these candidates would be your choice?

Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Candidate B is Winston Churchill.
Candidate C is Adolph Hitler.

Tony Blair comes across to me as a very sincere man who genuinely wants to be fair and lead this country in an honest style with integrity.

All our perceptions are personal to us.

Have a great week.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 11, 2005 9:10 AM

Stephen, I agree with who knows what's going to happen with the economy except in hindsight, but I don't think it is as strong as we've been told to believe or that Labour's management of it has been prudent.

On the devolutions you're crediting Mr. Blair with, in my view he accommodated requests from the people involved rather than initiated them. This is not to diminish his ability to manage the times he inherited - only to suggest that the devolution issues do not qualify him as a considerable leader. It would have been politically impossible for him to ignore them.

In my view, Tony Blair's legacy will be higher taxes, suffocating regulation, a vast expansion in the size, scope and cost of government, more entitlements, the introduction of a new PC vocabulary and a breakdown in law and order. Not things I associate with a 'great leader'.

I'll agree that Mr. Blair is a consummate politician, but I do not think the man has any convictions at all. To my eyes and ears he is about as sincere as a coffee table.

And Trevor, I know you love and admire Mr. Blair, but I think it's fair game in politics to be publicly criticized. We're not advocating a proctoscope here, just a friendly enquiry as to the reputation, based on our opinion, that the man is likely to leave behind.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 9:52 AM

All the way from Tony Blair's legacy to British Rail Pork Pies and back again to Blair's legacy. I'm not a huge Blair fan but I do admire his strength and eloquence in times of crisis, and I think we have seen some glimpses of "our Ton' " at his best this last week or so. His eventual legacy? Like Churchill whose steadfast WW2 leadership overshadowed all of his earlier cock-ups, I think Tony Blair still has his legacy in his own hands. The wide range of comments, opinions, and emotions expressed seems to support this view. Last week's infamous attack on London has given him a fresh arena, and yet another chance to put Iraq behind him.

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Posted by Richard King at July 11, 2005 10:07 AM

That's great guys - I love Trevor's analogue (and I'm a huge Churchill fan!), I'm delighted to agree with Noel's onslaught (although why is a coffee table insincere?) and Richard, fittingly, sums it all up beautifully.

So - do we move onto another topic now?!

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 11, 2005 10:21 AM

Coffee tables?

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 10:28 AM

Well, you did say Blair's as sincere as one, which implies you think he isn't, and it isn't!?

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 11, 2005 10:53 AM

I do not expect my coffee table to be either sincere or insincere. It simply is. However, I expect a little more from the leader of a country than to simply stand there inanimately and be.

I apologize for being disrespectful to carpenters everywhere who I am sure sincerely consider whatever coffee tables they may have produced to be beautiful works of art.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 11:03 AM discount real viagra

Amen!

Posted by Stephen Spencer at July 11, 2005 11:25 AM

Hi Noel

I am not in love with Tony Blair ...we are just good friends :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 11, 2005 2:14 PM

Trevor, you seem to have lots of friends in high places, Sir Alex Ferguson for example. I doubt very much that I could have persuaded one of the greatest football coaches in the world to endorse any book I published and it wouldn't be for want of trying.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 2:37 PM

Thanks Noel - my coffee table is looking good too :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 14, 2005 3:38 AM

A legacy usually turns out to be the next person in line--the reaction to the person's leadership. One of President Reagan's legacies was President Bush (I). People were quite satisfied with Ronald Reagan's eight years so they reacted by signing on for a few more under Bush. President Clinton's legacy was President Bush (II). People reacted negatively and elected an opposite. It could be argued that Tony Blair is a legacy of the Thatcher / Major leadership. (John Major--used to answer Prime Minister's Question Time questions ultra smoothly, but otherwise a non-entity?) So Blair's legacy will ultimately be who ends up in power after he is gone. That's my crackpot theory, anyway.

Posted by Mike at July 14, 2005 2:36 PM