Comments

Thank you Tom for those inspiring words.

Good will always triumpn over evil and Britain is wonderful when faced with evil challenge.

The people of London and our wonderful emergency services responded magnificently.

Already London is getting back to normal.

Tony Blair's speech yesterday was awesome - I restate my view - Mr Blair is a truly great leader.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 8, 2005 7:50 AM

Well said, Mr. Peters. Excellent stuff to ponder.

I weep for our British brethren, but I also applaud them. They are tough and strong. Makes me think back to the stories of the King & Queen and how they stayed in London during the Nazi Blitz - refusing to leave. Despite the danger, the children wouldn't leave the queen, the queen wouldn't leave the king and the king wouldn't leave the people. They visited wounded civilians in hospitals and helped to rescue people from buildings that had just be leveled by the Luftwaffe. Selfless acts of courage by national leaders. Now, there's a symbol of Brand You.

Posted by Darrin Dickey at July 8, 2005 8:03 AM

Great post Tom - Not sure I agree with all of it!

I don't think the G8 was a failure. Although the attacks did shorten the time available and the media coverage. It should be noted that real stuff was delivered and will make a difference in Africa. That difference will carry on long after the coverage of either the G8 or the attacks has faded.

You talk about "actions specifically aimed at pre-empting "chaos" via thorough preparation for uncertain times." What actions do you propose?

The very way that we win this war is by being normal! If we start changing society to meet the threats does that not mean that they have succeeded? (Obviously I am not saying we should ignore basic security improvements)

As I posted previously today the most inspiring thing I have seen today is people being "normal". Yes hurt, angry and scared but determined to get on and go about their business.

Maybe this is a very British thing. We have lived through decades of bombing (threats and real - the office I work in was about 50m away from the IRA attack in 2001) there is a level of stoicism here that is part of the DNA. Note - I am not saying we just sit and take it - our armed forces are more than capable should that need arise....

Personally - I proud to be British and trying to be "normal" today.

Posted by PaulH at July 8, 2005 8:18 AM

Individuals and civilisations - we all have the capacity to dig deep and survive terrible times. In the west we all know about New York, Madrid and now London. But what about the ordinary citizens of the West Bank, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Zimbabwe and coutless other places blighted by terror? They too have shown an extraordinary resilience and some of them are now coming through to help us build a more tolerant, pluralistic world.

We must never fall back into the old days of mutually assured destruction and should make tolerance the key to our survival.

Posted by Mark JF at July 8, 2005 8:41 AM

Our thoughts and prayers are with all our friends in the U.K. When you need us we'll be there.

Posted by walterwhite at July 8, 2005 8:54 AM

The free world sets the agenda - freedom and free enterprise is dominate and spreading faster and faster.

G8 a brilliant success in spite of islam fascist cowardly perverse action.

The free world has killed terroist muslims and stopped dozens of muslim nazi sponsored attacks since 9/11 - and the pace quickens - dead bin laden on 9th day of 9th month - ramadan.

Panic is an older generation term and behavior - it isn't in the new order vocab. Free enterprise has built in market/social uncertainty for decades to come.

Government and politicians are accountable though - we pay them and honor them as leaders - they need to produce security from low IQ islam at a faster more deadly pace. Individuals must be ultra smart-active to thrive also.

Love and prayers for the fallen/injured heroes and their families. EU/free world must take radical action against the islam enemy within.

Posted by Sean at July 8, 2005 11:14 AM

It's easy for only one person, in only a moment, to destroy what took hundreds, or thousands, many years of hard work to create--not to mention the human lives destroyed.

These evil destroyers have declared war on the rest of the world, and will continue to wreak their barbaric, monstrous destruction until they are stopped. With all respect, Great One, "being prepared" is not the issue. It is not possible to prepare for this kind of attack. "Destroying the destroyers" is the issue.

As soon as we (the civilized world) generate the resolve to refuse to tolerate this horrible destruction any longer, then we will destroy the destroyers. Then, and only then, will their murderous destruction stop, and the world will have a modicum of peace and security.

If we think otherwise we are only fooling ourselves, and we will suffer many more 9/11's, 3/11's, and 7/7's until we come to our senses and take the only possible effective action--which will be to destroy the destroyers.

Posted by Tim at July 8, 2005 11:31 AM

Dear Tom,
Great Post. We at India have been at the receiving end of terrorism for over 15 years. When the Mumbai blasts happened in 1993, within 6 hours blood banks were refusing donors as they were full and the next day office attendance was 97%! Mumbai and India have learnt the hard way to be resilient. We in India can empathise with the Londoners. Our heart goes out to those who lost their lives and the families . As Tom said, chaos is seriously interested in us!!!

Posted by Srini at July 8, 2005 12:13 PM

Sean, not happy with "low IQ islam." PC or no, it is profoundly incorrect--not to mention countreproductive--to dismiss a great religion for the acts of a literally insane minority. Let's start by capitalizing Islam.

Posted by tom peters at July 8, 2005 12:31 PM

Mark JF said, "We must never fall back into the old days of mutually assured destruction and should make tolerance the key to our survival."

With all respect, I don't think "tolerance" is in these fanatics' vocabulary. There's only one way to win a war against evil people, and that's to act collectively and show our united resolve to defeat them. True tolerance is attainable only after the scourge of the intolerant is removed or reduced to insignificance.

Best wishes to our friends in the UK; your resolve and determination are inspirational.

Posted by Chuck at July 8, 2005 1:10 PM

I don't live in London, but in the UK (and I love London).

The people in London were amazing! The emergency services were fantastic, the cabbies were driving around for free after the trains stopped, businesses helped out where they could. And people coped. They walked and walked to get home. Today, they got back on the bus.

Olympics? Seems to me that London showed the world what a great city it was yesterday.

PS Thanks for all the messages. We over here really are touched by the messages from all the US bloggers wishing us well.

Posted by Tim Almond at July 8, 2005 1:21 PM

I could give a rats' backside, Tom about low IQ islam capitalized - the focus/energy is on killing the perversion of terror/terrorists. I agree with the principle of destroying the destroyers - the nuclear option ended WWII - I'd look to our best minds to find a similar solution/innovation to resolve this WWIII. Islam is responsible to step up and solve this hideous homocidal addiction of their extremists. They must start with recognizing and putting Israel on their world maps - extreme low IQ for not doing that. Secondly they must stop funding extremists from Mosque "places of worship" - especially in the EU where too much of this activity goes unchecked. And thirdly they must report on and repeatedly publicize their outrage when 9/11, 7/7 and similar is celebrated in the streets by "Palestinians" and by Hamas, Hezbollah and similar terrorist perversion.

This is the lowest IQ emotionally and spiritually the world has seen since the Nazis. Bless the Brits for their awesome toughness and resolve and high energy to meet this challenge fast.

Posted by Sean at July 8, 2005 2:05 PM

I of course abhor and condemn all murder and killing. But let's not forget: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. After we've wiped out all the Islamic fundamentalists, where do we go next? Who do we fight next? How much difference and debate do you accept? Do you not think that the Iraqi terrorists want the US / UK government and press to repeat a phrase above) to repeatedly publicize the abuses their forces have committed in Iraq? Or in Guantanemo?

This, "You're either against me or for me" attitude is never going to get us anywhere. There was a touch of naivety in my earlier comment - sure - and maybe there are some truly evil people this world would be better without - but I'd like to post a couple of quotes from someone whose been mentioned in a few recent blogs on this site: Gandhi.

"Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary."
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Posted by Mark JF at July 8, 2005 2:56 PM

Mark JF, I think there's a world of difference between people who knowingly and intentionally murder innocents--the terrorists--and a freedom fighter.

The American patriots of the late 18th century, for example, were certainly revolutionary and fought for their freedom, but they didn't kidnap innocents and slit their throats, or board public transportation to cold-bloodedly murder non-combatants. There's no moral equivalency here with the evildoers in today's fight.

I think the current War on Terror is truly a case of "either for or against"; there is no middle ground, insofar as these cowardly murderers are concerned. And imagining that we can reconcile our differences by conversation and increased tolerance is, in my opinion, utopian.

The fact we must realize is that they want to destroy us and our way of life...and that includes you, Mark, and all those near and dear to you.

Posted by Chuck at July 8, 2005 3:09 PM

Chuck - that's a great remark about, "...the scourge of the intolerant..." It's really the nub of the problem. I'm trying to draw out 2 points:

1) We must make sure we do not tar every Islamic or Muslim believer with the same brush: they and their religion are being subverted and perverted by a minority. Should we hate all Islams because they've produced bin Laden? Should we hate all Germans because they produced Hitler?

2) Many terrorists consider themselves to be freedom fighters: it's a question of which side of the debate you stand on. Look at Nelson Mandela, look at Menachim Begin. Both men committed what might be called terrorist crimes (innocents died) but went on to become statesmen. We came close to executing both men but they put terrorism behind them and worked for peace. (Look at some Northern Ireland politicians for an up-to-the-minute example of this quandry.)

But if we kill bin Laden, or if our security services locate a group of terrorists who all get killed in a shoot-out "as the police close in," will that of itself remove the scourge of the intolerant? I think not.

I agree we have to show resolve in the face of these attacks. We have to defend ourselves. We have to step in to defend the defenceless. But most counter-terrorism people will tell you that you can't win the war unless you win the hearts and minds of the people concerned.

Posted by Mark JF at July 8, 2005 4:37 PM

Mark, I'm not sure these terrorists have freedom on their minds. They do not have secular values. Their first loyalty is to an extremist brand of religious fundamentalism. Our values appeal primarily to the material. Theirs appeal primarily to the soul. In some ways this makes their values stronger than ours. How many of us are willing to die martyred deaths?

In my view the motivation behind a radical interpretation of any religion is power - the power to enslave other people, but I think we should be careful not to attribute terrorist characteristics to all Muslims. In my experience, Islam is characterised by openness, tolerance and hospitality and this is what the vast majority of Muslims practice peacefully all over the world.

Unfortunately, there is nothing we have that the terrorists respect, except force.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 8, 2005 5:06 PM

Dear all,

At the outset, I'd like to extend my condolences to all those who lost family and friends in the London blasts. I'd like to congratulate the emergency service members and healthcare workers for their impressive work. I'd also like to congratulate ordinary Londoners for behaving in a civilised manner and allowing professionals from the emergency agencies and health workers to do their jobs.

It's really easy to blame Bush, Blair, colonists of a hundred years ago, religious animosity, a perceived lack of justice and so on...

But here's the thing - In a country where other sources of income are not available, terrorism becomes a viable alternative profession. For organisers of terrorism, an attack that gets such great publicity also brings about money flowing into their bank accounts. The money comes from moderates who won't vote with their guns, but will vote with their wallets.

In a battle for hearts and minds in less developed areas, make absolutely sure that there are strong economic incentives for not getting into terrorism. So exports from Afghanistan, Iraq and other troubled areas in Africa for e.g. should be encouraged. For e.g. countries that regularly import products from others should allow imports without duty from these countries. There are a lot more actions that can be done to increase employment and economic empowerment in these areas.

In the battle for hearts and minds in developed areas, follow the money trail. Figure out who is funding what. While not victimising aid and charity agencies, get governments in those countries to enforce reporting systems to monitor fund transfers to and from their countries. If someone is caught paying off terrorists or 'relatives of terrorists', prosecute them under the laws of their own country.. If the country has an islamic law system, such activities could lead to literal loss of limb and life.

In conclusion, try and focus on prevention and cure rather than the blaming others and building a fortress mentality.

G'day

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at July 9, 2005 12:52 AM

TP: "On the other hand, we must understand that even powerful nations like the U.S. and Spain and Britain cannot protect us."

Thats the underlying problem in the Western world right now. The word 'powerful' is misused as much as 'power' itself!!

A small story to enlighten all of you in this forum..
"..when Gandhi's prayer was going on in one village, all of a sudden a Muslim person pounced on him. He caught his throat. Gandhi almost collapsed. While falling down Gandhi recited a beautiful quotation from the Quran. Hearing the words of Quran, the Muslim, instead of throttling Gandhi, touched his feet and with a feeling of guilt he said: "I am sorry. I was committing a sin. I am prepared to remain with you to protect you. Give me any work, entrust to me any task, tell me what work I should do?" Gandhi had a sense of humour and compassion. He said: "Do only one thing. When you go back home, do not tell anyone what you tried to do with me. Otherwise there will be Hindu-Muslim riots. Forget me and forget yourself." That man went away with a feeling of repentance."
(as told by British journalist Horace Alexander)

If the G-8 leaders picked a copy of the Quran and read a few pages, maybe, maybe, they would know what the terrorists are thinking..and why 8/10 Muslims in Britain think the war is justified.

Posted by fullymubbed at July 9, 2005 3:00 AM

Sean,

I would call it 'low Islam IQ' in the West!!

Tim,

With regard to your 'Civilized' world reference, do the people in the Middle-East, Africa and South Asia represent the 'Uncivilized' world. Or is it just your ignorance and definition of the world that makes me think so??

Everybody seems to talk like George Bush and Dick Cheney these days..

Posted by fullymubbed at July 9, 2005 3:05 AM

I had writted "..war is justified."

I meant the 'holy war' by the terrorists.

Posted by fullymubbed at July 9, 2005 3:10 AM

Arun, I think your suggestions are well intentioned. The terrorism we are dealing with however is state sponsored originating primarily from Iran and its extreme religious interpretation whose appeal goes under borders and recruits terrorists throughout the middle east. It has been going on for decades. This is historical fact rather than opinion. The West has blundered about in the Middle East and in many ways its actions in the past have created the problems we are now dealing with. Unfortunately it has reached a point where throwing money at the problem will not make it go away. I would like to believe we can appease our way out of the situation, but I do not think we can. The terrorists are not interested in our message or our money. Our total surrender is their only interest. Doing this would not make the problem go away. World domination is their goal and if I am asked to choose between Western freedoms, as imperfect as they may be, and the rigid control of an extreme version of what is meant to be a moderate religion, I know which I prefer.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 3:12 AM

Noel: "The West has blundered about in the Middle East and in many ways its actions in the past have created the problems we are now dealing with. Unfortunately it has reached a point where throwing money at the problem will not make it go away."

While you sounded right on that one, it was unfortunate to read the following from you.

"..Our total surrender is their only interest. Doing this would not make the problem go away. World domination is their goal"

A little time spent Googling about the ideology and goals of the Al Qaeda network make me believe otherwise..

"The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs."
Even though that is not what the majority of the Muslims in the Middle-East believe, it definitely is not something in agreement with you.

Posted by fullymubbed at July 9, 2005 3:49 AM

First, my condolences for the deceased and empathy for those who are hurt and affected - and for the entire British nation in general. All thing being equal or unequal, nothing justifies the deaths of innocent people anywhere. And people who cheer this sort of thing need balance and something-to-do in their lives.

Second, I see there are a lot of comments about "low IQ islam" and our values/ their values. More on values later.

I do keep wondering about this entity called al-Qaeda - a prime example of the flat world - with independent individuals working in cells who can be activated with impeccable accuracy. I read a RAND article around four years ago about cellular organizations (and I always though that was a great business model, sadly being used by intelligence agencies and independent anti-human organizations). But this model of excellence is used apparently by a bunch of low iq folks. Wow! Even the mightiest Western/ Chinese/ Asian-pacific business organizations today fail to be so elegant and aligned around critical missions.

Funny, isn't it? When most Muslim countries - such as Afghanistan and Pakistan can't even run an HR software companies without breaking down 5 times a month? (Pakistan's fiber optic system broke down for about 10 days, bringing online business to a halt until a feeble plan B was brought into action.) There exists a "low IQ" organization which is the best example of BEST SOURCING, coordinating, resource alignment, supply chain mgmt. This is where many Muslims begin to wonder.

Who/ where is al-Qaeda anyway? When the Muslim countries are divided across lines of language, race, caste, creed, and the Organization of Islamic Countries (lovingly called the “Oh, I see!” by Muslims for their lack of action or even stance on any issue of importance …) can’t even issue a coherent policy statement – who are these otherwise uneducated people, aligned so single-mindedly around one mission? Where are they coming from and who trained them where? Where is this parallel universe? What goes into making such an elegant organization (and I have but a clinical awe for them) and is that possible just with a bunch of lunatics on a fringe? What is the ratio of all highly educated Muslims to the recruits of Al-Qaeda (certainly, they must have some of the best minds on board - but how many such Muslim minds exist anyway)? How did al-Qaeda align itself within such a short span of time? Has any such "mastermind" been ever caught and interrogated? Have we seen the poor little fools in Guantanamo Bay and do we think they are capable of transferring sophisticated encrypted messages on the Internet (cf: Newsweek and TIME stories on possible cryptographic means employed by 9/11 planners)?

Can this forum with its great insights into the dynamics of excellent organizations answer this one question: how can low IQ and the sophistication of al-Qaeda the-ghost-no-one-could-catch be reconciled?

Posted by Ramla A. at July 9, 2005 4:59 AM

The Muslim world is not confined to the Middle East. Instead it comprises a "community of over 850 million people and more than 190 ethnic groups living in 37 countries around the world." It is not a "unified, radical geopolitical force bent on confronting the West." Only a radical minority in it are. Their aim is to force through terror Muslims everywhere to conform to their extremist views. Their purpose or Jihad is to demolish the West and our freedoms. Our withdrawal from the Middle East would not stop the Jihad or the violence. It would serve only to strengthen their forces so that they could launch more effective attacks against us.

"The symbolic center of the Muslim world, the Persian Gulf region, is unquestionably a vital interest of the United States. It is a bridge between Europe, Asia, and Africa, sits atop 55 percent of the world's proven oil reserves, and contains two of the world's most vital checkpoints - the Suez Canal and the Strait of Hormuz. It is also the most violently unstable region in the world.

The West has a vital interest in maintaining access to Persian Gulf oil. Europe depends on the Gulf for over 75 percent of its oil, Japan for over 90 percent. While the United States receives only 6 percent of its oil from this region, the ripple effect of an oil cutoff from the Persian Gulf would cripple US industry. Such a cutoff would be fatal to the industries of our allies in Western Europe. As long as the West remains so dependent on Gulf oil, we must maintain the capability to defend our friends in the Persian Gulf region."

I appreciate these facts are not 'likeable'. This does not make them any less true. As to the 'sophistication' and 'intelligence' of al-Quaeda, I do not associate either of these terms with terrorists who I consider to be a bunch of fanatical thugs.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 7:01 AM

Oil stoppage in the middle east crippling effect: the middle east would dry up and blow away - they import most everything and depend on oil revenue to feed themselves.

The "royalty" and dictators would never let the oil stop because that is their only source of their perverse "power".

The greatest security measures in the world are around the oil fields because "royalty" and dictators of the mid east know their own home grown terrorists would love to stop the flow and thrive on any chaos that may develop.

USA impact of oil stoppage: unemployment may go up to 10% like most of Europe now - poverty though in the USA is 1st class for most world citizens. North American reserves and exploration would accelerate to meet demand - the democrats would complain bitterly that Moose migration may be inconvenienced - hydrogen/coal/wind/tidal power would prevail.

Posted by Sean at July 9, 2005 7:57 AM

They wept and then they moved forward. I love that image.
In response to the attacks on London and, on a bigger scale, on freedom, Tony Blair expressed what many of us feel - we will continue to "defend that which we hold dear." Images of thousands crowding onto London's mass transit system yesterday provided proof that people have the right stuff, the courage to take actions that defy attempts to squelch freedom.
If the goal of terrorism and homicide bombers is to paralyze free minds and free trade, those of us who would give their lives for freedom are taking back the day and the night. "LET US MARCH!"

Posted by Pam Brill at July 9, 2005 7:57 AM

ON VALUES

Pop Quiz: Which society in the world today has what we'd call ideal values? Values that create a balance, and a fair and just environment in alignment with nature and ecology? A society that balances the spiritual with the material and where all people have fair and just access to their rights?

Answer: None.

It's funny that despite our internal failures, we are all trying to export our values.

NO ONE wants others' values. And neither "Muslim" values nor the Western values are the recipe to humanity's salvation. Let's wake up to the facts of diversity, and people's right to refuse values implemented out of nowhere. There are no wrong or right values. There are only relevant values. If I were to emulate the lifestyle of a pop star where I am a a businesswoman, or vice versa, the value set and my life would be completely skewed. Nor should anyone hand me down their lifestyles and daily to-do lists. And this is the biggest issue with developing nations. We do not want to import life styles!

I once facilitated an environmental capacity building seminar by IUCN (The World Conservation Union) where I was an intern. We told community leaders in poor communities that using plastic to light up stoves was bad for their environment and health. They should use eco-friendly methods instead. Such as, ummm… wood!

I have to be honest. My mental image was this that these women and their families are poor village dwellers. OF course they cut wood for livelihood, don't they? So they can do it every morning. Neat, right?

No. One of the women calmly said, do you know think we can't tell plastic is bad? We are the ones who inhale it. Do you know the price of wood? Do you know that wood alone would cost us more than half our monthly income? Do you know that the 'land mafia' is illegally removing cultivation-grade soil from our area so that vegetation has stopped - and do you picture that as fewer trees? And that we are ill-nourished women who don't chop woods?

For an MBA from the country's top institute (who could barely put up with the odors of their bodies and the unbelievable sight of wailing children in the conference room!) this was some insight. I went to the IUCN library and found out about indigenous no-tech stoves in Africa. I FWD'd this info for future use in the seminars.

Moral of the story: We all have relative values suited only to us, and it helps to understand that if we are affluent, it does not mean we start ramming our values down others' throats and then wonder why are they have digestion issues. The enforcement of "their values" isn't happening one way, and it's nothing new. Welcome to the other side!

Regards & Peace.

Posted by Ramla A. at July 9, 2005 9:11 AM

P.S. Sean, point taken. Help me with the riddle about the low IQ? :)
P.P.S. And the reason why I inverted-comma'ed "Muslim" values is that I wonder where that species exists. Without a bias and with a lot of concern, I'd say that the state of the Muslim world is awful. And I'll stop here, or it'll merit a book.
P.P.P.S. Pop Quiz 2: To an unbiased Martian, what is the difference between both sides of values? In the real world, the differences are only perceptual. Conflicts arise when we try to perpetuate geography and time bound value all over time and space. And therefore even in a given country, say, the young and old clash; men and women clash - each side trying to impose their own values. .. it's as if that's the raison d’être of the humanity! Create conflict to resolve it. The Law of Relativity must be evoked to understand how we misperceive The Others!

Posted by Ramla A. at July 9, 2005 9:14 AM

Noel,

I do not admire the works of this elusive ghost al-Qaeda; I do, however, have what I said a clinical admiration of how they operate. It would be a source of great concern to me: how are they making it possible? And how, within hours of their attacks, everything just clues in. All pieces fall in place. Passports and Qurans survive fires to leaves clues. Videos surface at critical times. Dues ex machina at work?

There seems to be no answer to this question.

On a slight tangent: I do live in a place often marred by extreme violence of political, linguistic, and religious nature. We have witnessed the inner workings of terror almost first hand, and so from a pure observational POV, our citizens understand how these things and their operators work.

Recently, there was an incident involving attack on a religious site. Immediately afterwards, some people lead mobs to attack markets and restaurants. While the mob thought it was protesting, the inciters robbed the markets. Next day, members-apparant of a religious political party ordered a market to shut down their shops immediately, declaring it to be a strike/ protest. When the customers fled, these people turned out to be robbers who held the shop owners at gun point, and robbed and ran within minutes.

Point is: Things are often not what they seem. When choas and mob frenzy are created, there are many who jump in for individual or deviant purposes, pretending to be working for a larger cause. They are only working for themselves. This game is as old as politics. Just because a majority misperceives something does not mean it is true.

Having said all this, we do know there are thousands of fools who rush to protect Islam (with not a whit of knowledge about what this religion really is all about) and are found languishing in the jails of Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are the ones with the stories that go to the tune of, "We don't know, we went to protect Islam and were abandoned and imprisoned." Those idiots are the front face. Who is at the back? Any single one of them caught alive? With the sophisticated organizational plans they MUST have to run this operation?

NEVER a clear detail on this one.

Posted by Ramla A. at July 9, 2005 9:31 AM

Ramia, there is a difference between right and wrong and you can either tell what that difference is or you cannot. To me, deliberately setting out to blow people up as they are heading into work on trains or busses is wrong. On this matter, there is no hesitation or confusion in my mind.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 9:36 AM

Dear Noel:

Neither is there any confusion in my mind. It is wrong, and I condemn it. Just a day earlier, I cheered with the crowds who celebrated the Olympics hosting victory.

I condemn unneccessary violence. What is the purpose of any faith if human hearts have to suffer!?

Having said all this, I am a Muslim who does not appreciate Islam being misunderstood. My condemnation for that is stronger. However, I do not blame the others for this.

The principle which says that change starts from the inside-out is universal to all humans and good faiths, and as a Muslim I would practice that first before I set forth to change the world. On that count, (that of being a good example oneself first), however, I see the entire humanity failing. And a popular strategy to escape failure is to jump ship - to try to be successful elsewhere - in a new job, in a new relationship, in a new country. The more misguided take it a step further: they project their deviant values on to others. The underlying thought is simple: if everyone is the same, there will be an entirely parallel system of values, and the conflict will minimize. IN OTHER WORDS, I will not have to change. At the root of all this violence is the ego of each person who refuses to change him or herself first.

We know inside our hearts that none of the value systems are working. This is the fact. No society in the world today is at peace with itself. No person is secure. And that we can dress up our denial by trying to be successful. Elsewhere. That is it.

Regards.

Posted by Ramla A. at July 9, 2005 9:55 AM

My last statement may have been dramatic, but after a deep and long observation of conflict, this is what I think is true. I have been in an HR role, and I saw that many people having troubles at their jobs or lives tried to change the frame. New job. New people. New tasks. I'm not changing, I'm not looking at myself.

Their next/ parallel strategy was to try to make others around them miserable. By planting negative thoughts in others' heads. By trying to appear to be outstandingly successful and happy when they are not. And sometimes, by acting superior than others.

I see it in too many people today. And that's why the study of conflict, for me, has boiled down to a personal level: if I am at peace, individually, my world is at peace. Otherwise I can outreach everyone and pretend to be successful and holier-than-thou and still not be satisfied.

I teach entrepreneurship. One of the things I tell my class is that no matter how large an enterprise is, it is a reflection of the spirit and strength on ONE person who initiated it, and who perpetuated her/ his vision in others who work for them. It all boils down to individuals and how are they conducting themselves. And so the stated objective of my course is: to bring alice the spirit of entrepreneurship in thought and action.

The reverse is also true. Individuals conflicting with themselves perpetuate their disturbance throughout their circle of influence, to their society, to their nation. Ultimately, the picture breaks down to show us individuals who are not at peace with themselves.

If the forum will allow me to ask: is "the west" at peace?

Is it not true that imperialism is stemming out of our failure to succeed in our own territory?

To my mind, no one is right.

P.s. I only read the entire 7 Habits recently - having avoided it for long for fear that it was one of those psycho-babble self-help tomes that I have little respect for. Finally I managed, and... frankly, first, the invitation to change myself annoyed me. But it just clicked in place: how can I copy/paste my values onto others or borrow those if I do not know who I am? I have no right to change others without changing myself. And I realize that this is too much pain for a person. A far easire way is to start lecturing others. Same old, same old problem of humanity!

Posted by Ramla A. at July 9, 2005 10:20 AM

Ramia, I understand your point, but nothing is ever perfect. We have to work out how to live together without bullying each other. Everyone has made mistakes, The West has made mistakes, The East has made mistakes. All of us are making mistakes now. However, as I know you agree, the solution will not be found through terrorism nor through imperialism which will just get everybody's back up, but through compromise like in any business negotiation or human relationship.

So please, don't give up on the world. As imperfect as it may be, there's a hell of a lot to recommend it, both the inventiveness and idealism of the West and the tolerance and business savvy of the East.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 12:06 PM

Ramla - Islam is almost a total state of perversion - unless you're condemning the Islamofascists in every other sentence - then you're perhaps with them in your heart. The British empire advanced world culture and peace exponentially - hardly imperialism.

The 3rd world low IQ of Muslim radicals is no mystery - they need to function as free enterprise democracy, free world proponents to survive and some day thrive - now they are STD ridden idiot fools hiding behind a perverse "religion".

Praise for Qaeda like yours is perhaps similar to the Hitler worship of some - gee he was a fine orator - maybe he didn't kill 7 million Jews, catholics, gypsies, gays - et. al. in the name of the 3rd Reich. Similar to Mohammed Atta's dad [9/11] in some Islam-opium frenzy saying that Israeli Mossad flew the 9/11 planes. Similar to 70% of Muslims polling as seeing bin laden as hero to Islam.

The Al Jeezera perversion is extremely low IQ - no wonder the West has gained Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan - with the rest of the mid east prime for Western takeover - mainly because radical Islamists are too lazy minded to understand the basics 101 of governance. Rad Islam-education is an oxymoron. bin ladens head on the 9th day of the 9th month = massive celebration = rad islam v. rad islam deaths in the 1000's perhaps. The West shall control mid east wealth for reparations.

R man I know in your heart and soul you realize the West is the Way.

Posted by Sean at July 9, 2005 1:51 PM

See what I meant about Sean?

Posted by Ciaran McCabe at July 9, 2005 2:00 PM

Sean, writing off 850 million people in thirty-odd countries around the world because of their religious beliefs and the radical interpretation of those beliefs a minority of them subscribe to makes as much sense to me as the terrorists wanting to write off the entire population of the Western world, and anyone else who doesn't agree with them.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 2:28 PM

Have a lot of energy in general Ciaran and especially for UK/USA/Western heritage - plus I lost acquaintances in the twin towers and lived in the DC area [near the Home Depot lady murder], October 2002 when the Muslim snipers cold-blood murdered 10, wounded 3 total innocents in 23 days - almost no one reads these blogs anyway - and your story?

Posted by Sean at July 9, 2005 2:40 PM

Noel - reads like you are jumping to radical extremes - Islamofascism is the threat - there are many fine Islamists - not nearly enough though.

Like if someone said Irish heritage started it all with Catholic vs. Protestant terrorism - it happened but it stopped too.

The threat is real in UK mosques - and the radicalism thrives in EU more so than most places.

Posted by Sean at July 9, 2005 2:47 PM

Okay, but I think there are far more moderates than extremists in the Islamic religion. The extremists are a tiny minority, a dangerous minority I agree, but not representative of the views of the majority who would not resort to terrorism to make their point.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 2:57 PM

I agree with far more moderates - but was shocked by the bin laden 70% support - 1 billion Islamists.

The main thing to me is to radically accelerate the the termination of terrorism. It can happen - there are business models for it everywhere.

Red Adair put out the 1st Gulf war saddam oil fires in weeks - predictions were it may take years because of the scope of it / uncertainty of it.

The velvet revolution collapsed the Soviet Union while we drank wine and ate strawberries/cream - it still blows me away how the cold war seemingly suddenly disappeared. I sat next to an east German on a 1996 Europe flight - he said one day the teachers started teaching English rather than Russian.

The money and power trail is key. Pressure pressure pressure on radical Islam to stop terrorism support, funds support, mosque support - you name it - it must die a bloody death perhaps before being reborn as divine freedom and optimal human nature.

I'm just one but am here to try to make a bit of a difference.

Posted by Sean at July 9, 2005 3:17 PM

Sean, here is something written in 1993 that you might find interesting:

"Iraq's recent enemy, Iran, has more potential than any other nation to be the dominant regional power in the Persian Gulf. With a population of 60 million, 10 percent of the world's oil resources, and a modern technological infrastructure, Iran has more military and economic power than any other country in the Middle East except Turkey. It has an army of almost one million troops and has gone on a military buying binge in the former Soviet Union and China.

Since the end of its war with Iraq in 1988, Iran has undertaken a diabolically subtle strategy to export its brand of extremist fundamentalism without disrupting its economic relations with the West. It has funded extremist movements in Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Afghanistan, supported radical regimes in the Sudan and other countries, and embarked on an ambitious program to develop its own nuclear weapons with the aid of North Korea and China.

Iran is the major sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East, supporting Hamas in southern Lebanon, bankrolling Muslim terrorist groups based in Tehran and the October movement in Egypt, and forming terrorist hit squads to assasinate Iranian dissidents in Western Europe. It has extended its ideological reach into Central Asia, focusing on Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan.

Because it launched the Persian Gulf War, Iraq gets more attention in the West, but Iran is by far the greater long-term threat. Iraq's threat is only military. Its secular philosophy has no appeal beyond its border. Iran's threat is both military and religious.

As Israel's Prime Minister Rabin pointed out when we met in New York in late 1993, Iran's tactics are ominously similar to those of the Soviet Union's infamous Comintern before World War II. Rather than supporting openly pro-Iranian movements in target nations it seeks to dominate, it supports nationalist opposition movements that advocate its brand of extreme Muslim fundamentalism, just as the Commmunist Party of the Soviet Union supported indigenous communist parties in noncommunist nations. Rabin explained that this allows an Egyptian, for example, to be an Iranian-oriented extreme Muslim fundamentalist and a loyal Egyptian at the same time, just as members of the Soviet-controlled indigenous communist parties in the West during the Cold War could be communists without being openly disloyal to their own countries.

As a result, throughout the Muslim world today there are rapidly growing fundamentalist movements whose members appear to be loyal to their own countries but whose first loyalty is to the extreme Muslim fundamentalist religion with its roots in Iran.

As Rabin emphasized, this is an insidious form of aggression. It allows the aggressor to take over its victim without risking international condemnation. Rather than going over a border, Iran in effect goes under a border and enlists citizens of the target nation who share its extreme religious faith to carry out its designs for conquest.

Iran's strategy, as the Soviets' used to be, is to expand its influence and domination over other countries by the appeal of its ideas rather than the use of raw military power. Another striking similarity between their tactics is that Iran uses terrorism to support its aggression."

Nixon wrote this in his 1993 book, Beyond Peace.

In my opinion, America's invasion of Iraq was done to give it a stronger base than it has in either Israel of Saudi Arabia to invade Iran and topple its government. We were not told this, but I believe it has been part of the strategy from the beginning and we are starting to see the same calls for Iran to reveal the extent of its weapons program etc. as we saw for Iraq prior to its invasion.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 9, 2005 5:31 PM

Wow, Noel, from reading your posts over the past few months, I didn't take you to be one to engage in Conspiracy Theories. Quite a leap, in my opinion, to say we invaded Iraq--following a decade of their refusing to comply with UN Resolutions, and posing a threat to the Western world through its (believed by almost everyone) possession of WMD--to gain a foothold from which to invade Iran.

Time will only tell if you're gullible or I'm naive. My hunch, though, as someone who's worn the uniform of the US military for three decades, is that both our countries will depart Iraq when that country's sovereignty is established...regardless of the turmoil brewing on its border, and without an effort toward military conquest of Iran...because, in all likelihood, that country will someday implode upon itself due to its inability to democratically govern.

I just don't see the Western allies as the Bad Guys in this story...I think this time, we truly are the ones in the white hats.

Posted by Chuck at July 9, 2005 6:45 PM

Sean, my story is having more questions than answers, seems to me the ones that scare me the most, be it in business or outside, are the ones who come across as having all the answers, or have made up their minds, as you seem to.
I'd love to know the date (you profess to be in possession of it) when the Catholics and the Protestants stopped?

Posted by Ciaran McCabe at July 9, 2005 7:23 PM

quoted from Freakanomics..
"..for emotion is the enemy of rational argument. And as emtions go, one of them fear is more potent than the rest. The superpredator , Iraqi weapons, mass destruction, mad-cow disease, crib death: how can we fail to heed the expert's advice on these horrors when, like that mean uncle telling too-scary stories to too-young children, he has reduced us to quivers?"

Posted by fullymubbed at July 10, 2005 3:20 AM

Chuck, don't misunderstand me. I don't think it's a conspiracy theory, just a strategy, sort of like planning a couple of moves ahead in a chess game. My reading of history suggests governments engage in all sorts of geopolitical machinations and they don't always tell their populations what it is exactly they are up to.

This is what makes sense to me when I look at Iraq though I'm no Middle East expert and could be wrong. It's very possible America is going to ensure the Iraqi people can govern and defend themselves against the terrorists streaming into their country by helping to establish their democracy and building up their security forces before exiting to let them get on with it, as America tried to do in its Vietnamization policy prior to their withdrawal from Vietnam.

Hopefully, it will not have the same results as it did in Vietnam, but since a majority of the American people support what's being done in Iraq, it has in my view a better chance of succeeding. After all, if the people of a liberated country cannot successfully defend themselves, no other country can do it for them, unless the liberating country is in reality conquering them, and not liberating them.

I don't think the Iranian government will implode all by itself anymore than I think global terrorism is going to go away all by itself. Iran is the major exporter of state-sponsored terrorism and the problem has to be addressed. You know what I think America is going to do about it. In my view this will not make Americans 'bad guys'. I'm hoping the Americans succeed.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 10, 2005 3:54 AM

Ciaran - keep working on your confused state in this time of deadly action against islamofascism.

Freakonomics I felt was unprofessional = went for the sound bite rather than real economic measures. The fear factor has been built in to world affairs - terrorists have lost again on that count.

100,000 lost each year in hospitals to infections, 50K to driving fatality each year, 86K to flu each year = there is some fear but it is managed.

The '93 Iran is eons ago Noel - the main issue now for the UK is that it is infested with mosques full of islamofascists - government subsidized. Massive exportation/lockup is needed especially since the UK/EU is so geo close to the mid east. The enemy/finances within UK/EU should be the fast aggressive focus - 7/7 terrorists disappear into the mosques and homes of their UK hideouts.

Posted by Sean at July 10, 2005 6:06 AM

Noel,

Thank you for lending a kind ear. I agree with your statement and I believe there is a massive "room for improvement." More on this in a while.

First, I do have an association with the Great Britain. I was educated as an external candidate of the Universities of London and Cambridge through their uniquitous external examinations via the British Council. And I cannot thank the GCSE and Advanded Level system enough to teach me how to think. The tradition in which I received the better part of my education is Western, and I have a great admiration for the Western Way - which, until lately, I thought was the only way.

As the history of religion goes, Islam is one of the three "Western religions" - the three monotheistic, Abrahamic faiths. It builds on to the message that Abraham, David, Solomon, Moses, and Jesus brought to the world. In a way, it's like the latest edition of a book, that updates the old knowledge and cancels some of the old things out, plus clarifies fabrications (and there is a long history of fibbing in all Abrahamic faiths). I'll leave it at that.

Back to the Ways. I was teaching Right Brain thinking and mind maps to my students of entrepreneurship when I had an epiphany: the optimal thinking and intelligence is WHOLE BRAIN THINKING. If you look at the WORLD, and its two hemispeheres are macrocosmic enlargements of our brains - the left/ Western hemisphere is logical, precise, analytical, individualistic, masculine. The right/ Eastern hemisphere is holistic, intuitive, interdependent, creative, feminine.

The optimal thinking is the whole brain thinking. The optimal Way is the WHOLE WORLD WAY. The one that balances the yin and the yang. The East and the West. Our Way and Their Way. It takes the best of both and creates a common ground. And it accommodates both of "the others." It's very much like a male-female interaction taking place to create a family. Both are different. By co-depending and understanding, a man and a woman create a harmonious relationship while still remaining themselves. Think Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

To me, that seems to be the plausible solution. I haven't given up on the world, I am just admitting that the present isn't working. It's like saying, my diet isn't working, time to change! :)

Peace!

P.S. It's RamLa with an "L". As in, the Israeli city. I have heard weirder variants of the name. :)
P.P.S. Sean, I understand your POV. This is not the place to launch in to a discussion about who did what, but rest assured that no one's innocent here except we the people. Later!

Posted by Ramla A. at July 10, 2005 6:19 AM

The extreme liberal democrats of Kennedy and Johnson and the liberal demo senate and house = total Vietnam mismanagement. Goldwater and especially Nixon could have bailed it out - it was a win - but Nixon was forced from office by the radical liberal press especially the traitorious Washington Post.

France and Denmark and the Netherlands are doing outstanding intel to rid islamofascism from their soverign - the UK should model them.

Allies forever change - it is possible Iran could be massively bombed - a ground war seems impossible. France seems unworthy of USA / EU defense. Prayers this Sunday for UK citizens.

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Posted by Sean at July 10, 2005 6:34 AM

In order for two parties in a conflict to make steps toward any type of resolution, they must first attempt to hear and see the views of opponents and competitors who see and hear things from different perspectives. This is particularly challenging when people are ramped up in fight-or-flight mode, positioned, literally, to defend their turf or their beliefs. It becomes difficult, if not impossible, to think or see straight, to hear or see the whole truth (or at least enough of it to reconsider our positions)when we are under the siege of the natural chemical cocktail that floods body and brain when we are in fight-flight mode. From my perspective, reading the posts to Tom's initial comment, even blogging can stimulate those fight-flight juices to a point where hearing and seeing different perspetives becomes impaired - no matter what your point of view.

Posted by Pam Brill at July 10, 2005 11:46 AM

I like your article Tom. I´m a contingency lover, the more contingency, the more opportunities.

I feel very touched by the attacks in NY, Madrid and London. It´s a difficult job to face, but difficult situations need bold leaders. We will see how the world leaders handle this new context. I´m just convinced the old patterns of enemies and "We are stronger than them" are not enough. Tony Blair said on saturday despite the police increases the security measures terrorists can keep killing innocents.

I repeat, we will see.

Posted by felixgerena at July 10, 2005 1:12 PM

Pam, What perspective of the terrorists do you not understand? Osama bin Laden said that for his fatwa against the US to end, we have to renounce Israel's right to exist and all of us must convert to Islam...presumably, his hateful and perverse interpretation of that noble religion.

I fail to see much room to compromise with his position.

Further, how do you negotiate with someone who loathes you for your ethnicity and religious convictions? The answer, I think, is that you cannot.

As simplistic as this may sound, this is a battle between Good and Evil...and the terrorists are the evil ones. What religion or idealogy supports the intentional killing of innocents? None. So bin Laden and his murderers truly represent no one but themselves and, therefore, must be eradicated by force...to save innocents like you, Pam, and those you care about.

Posted by Chuck at July 10, 2005 5:40 PM

I've been away from the PC for a couple of days and wow!! - What exchanges

There is so much to catch up on.

Annie and I were at a wonderful garden party with friends on a beautiful Saturday evening on the edge of Birmingham.

It was a lovely way to relax after a stressful and tragic week for Britain we thought!

At about 9 pm we heard about the bomb scare that resulted in the evacuation of 20,000 people from the heart of Birmingham. We were about five miles away.

It made our hearts skip a beat and fear for the world when our freedom - hard fought for - is threatened by evil.

I would not slam the entire Islam faith for the actions of lunatics.

I resent the challenge to the freedom we have strived for and achieved in Britain.

I am so proud of my fellow Britains who have held their heads high this week in the face of evil.

The families and friends of the 49 confirmed dead - more likely to be closer to 70 dead do not deserve to be suffering the anguish they are now feeling.

My country has a wonderful leader in Tony Blair who will - I am convinced - be recorded in history as one of our greatest ever political leaders.

This is what I have said from the outset of the discussions on this Blog about Tony Blair and nothing will budge me from that position. I recognise sincerity when I see it and I recognise the thin veneer of a shallow person.

I cannot think of another political figure in Britain today that can hold a candle to the leadership of Tony Blair.

The best thing to come from this tragic week has been the typical British strength and long may it remain.

I am also so pleased with the wonderful repsonse from our dear friends in America. Together and with God we will triumph over evil.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 10, 2005 6:00 PM

I hesitate to fall into the trap of making this a religious war which is what the terrorists would like us to do. It gives them legitimacy. In my view, these are power-seeking criminals who must be caught and stopped.

It cannot be that nearly a billion people are on the side of evil because the vast majority of Muslims are moderate people who want nothing to do with the terrorists. Nor can it be that all Christians are on the side of good. That's ridiculous.

The terrorists would love to draw every Muslim into a war with the West. It's not what the majority of the Muslim world wants. I'm Irish. Would you lay on my head every IRA attrocity? You're British. Would I accuse you of firing the bullets on Bloody Sunday? Is Ireland on the sign of good and England on the side of evil? Or vice versa.

I agree there's no negotiating with terrorists, but in my mind the only label they deserve is 'criminal'.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 3:05 AM

Pam,

I would take this a stage further. I firmly believe that a 2 pronged approach is needed. Deal with the actual aggressors in a "robust" fashion but win over the breeding grounds for such hatred with understanding and dialog. Winning the hearts and minds battle is as important as winning the shooting one.

The war on terror is like no other and requires a sophisticated approach.

Posted by PaulH at July 11, 2005 6:31 AM

Hey Blair, go out of the Iraq! Please, wont be so stupid again! War will not work, never worked!
Europe liders, go out too! Forget Bush! Kill inocent people in Iraq will just make enemys! Is so dificult to see it???

Posted by Matheus at July 11, 2005 7:11 AM

Hey Blair, go out of the Iraq! Please, wont be so stupid again! War will not work, never worked!
Europe liders, go out too! Forget Bush! Kill inocent people in Iraq will just make enemys! Is so dificult to see it???

Posted by Matheus P. Mattos at July 11, 2005 7:12 AM

Paul, if someone resorts to terrorism, they've lost my understanding or desire to speak with them. If someone is unhappy with a foreign power, there is a successful alternative to terrorism. Ghandi and others have proved it.

Seeking to liberate people from totalitarian regimes, operating with the authority of God or not, by encouraging democratically elected governments to replace them and helping to ensure they prosper is in my opinion an effective means of winning the hearts and minds battle which might explain part of the reason why the terrorists do not wish to see Western involvement in Iraq succeed.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 8:18 AM

The language that leaders use is very important and I wonder if part of the problem here is that we've called this a, "war" on terror. And we capitalise it for extra emphasis.

When we call it a war, it rallies public opinion around the use of troops, it gives us a cause and it gives us a feeling that this is a once-and-for-all winnable issue. It also creates a divide: there are either friends and enemies, you're either for us or against us, everything appears very black and white. And this means a) it also gives the enemy something to rally around; and b) it makes everyone on the "other" side feel challenged.

What happened in New York, Madrid and London isn't war. It's crime. It's an abhorrent, disgusting crime against humanity and that's how we should portray it. We should use language that enables everyone to see these awful crimes for exactly what they are and in a way that allows them to join us in condemning it and working to eradicate it.

Paul H: great posting!

Posted by Mark JF at July 11, 2005 9:42 AM

Mark, I don't like the word 'war', but in my view that is what it is. Not a conventional war, but a war nonetheless. We are afterall, invading other countries. It's drawing it along religious lines that I think isn't too clever because it plays into the terrorist's hands. Much better in my view to call them criminals and on this we agree.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 11, 2005 10:42 AM

Paul, thank you for clarifying and adding on to my post. Believe me, I do not advocate for empathizing with aggressors. I spent over a decade working with domestic terrorists and, in many cases, providing testimony that led to them spending some part of their life's time behind bars. Not surprisingly, many of them shared the same disregard for human life as those who masquerade as "suicide" bombers when, from my perspective, they are really homicidal murderers. Mark, I agree with your suggestion that we ditch the whitewashed language and start to use the language that reflects reality.
What I do advocate for is trying to understand the mindsets and perspectives of those with points of view that are different from our own, whether they are fellow bloggers, competitors or enemies. That doesn't mean that you do this with the goal of agreement- just understanding. In some instances, such understanding can allow us to see who the people are on the other side of the negotation table or on the other side of a weapon. Knowing your competitor/enemy is as important as knowing yourself. But that's just my perspective...

Posted by Pam Brill at July 11, 2005 11:22 AM

Even if the West wins the war on terror or beats down the crime, the next generation has to face a new breed of them. Taliban came out of the Cold war generation and the present extremists are being born out of the 9/11 fallout. I wouldn't choose a model where it works for my generation and puts the future generations in danger (and that too with increasing diversity in the West). I am sure kids that grow up in the US and UK would have a whole different picture about Islam (kids dont understand moderates and extremists because they identify people by their appearance in the media - just the way they relate to McDonalds or Toy'r'Us ads).

From TP's manifesto on offshoring..
"For my future grandchildren's sake, I relish the idea of billions of wealthy, relatively happy Chinese and Indian people - rather than the idea of billions of impoverished people pissed off at wealthy Americans"
Tom Friedman speaks about his kids every chance he gets.
Steven Levitt relates legalized abortion in the 70s to crime rates in the 90s.

I might sound off-topic but I wouldn't put wonderful countries like the UK and the US (btw, American Dream is still alive!) built upon very strong foundations under unwanted risk just because two guys made a split-second bad decision in the White House.

Peace.

Posted by fullymubbed at July 11, 2005 12:27 PM

Pam, I'm not sure how a psychological analysis will help. We already know we're dealing with homicidal fanatics who want to run the world. What we need is logistical information like where are they and how do we help the security forces get their hands on them.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 12, 2005 3:40 AM

Noel, I think logistical information and more pressure can help to decrease the number of deaths and perhaps attacks, but i find it difficult to think that can be the solution for such a big problem. Especially when these terrorists don´t care about their lives as long as they achieve their goals.

I´m with Pam in this.

Posted by felix gerena at July 12, 2005 9:24 AM

Felix, hunting the terrorists down isn't the only solution proposed. As I posted above, "Seeking to liberate people from totalitarian regimes, operating with the authority of God or not, by encouraging democratically elected governments to replace them and helping to ensure they prosper is in my opinion an effective means of winning the hearts and minds battle."

Seeking to analyze them psychologically would at best be an exercise in fascination, sort of like tuning into a reality TV show.

Every culture has extremists. If there's opportunity, for example, the chance to get a decent job or access to capital to go into business for yourself, then there is a viable alternative to joining some half-baked, violent organization; a way to feel successful and good about yourself and your country without resorting to violence.

Coming from Ireland, I can say that much of the tension in the North was caused by a high rate of unemployment among Catholics and also, some discrimination towards them by Protestants. Remove these obstacles and cause for resentment, while having zero tolerance for violent extremists, and we would have a much more promising possibility for a long-term solution than we would by whipping out a pen and pad, saying:

"Tell me about your mother."

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 12, 2005 11:31 AM

I understand your position Noel, but i think western governments and particularly some of them are not neutral in giving birth to the international chaos we are living now. I don´t mean you have to talk to terrorists as to give them psychiatric treatment and i think Pam didn´t mean that either.

I´m just saying that given the absolutely injustified character of the attacks, we cannot suppose there is a thread of collective madness in a certain region of the world. Then other solutions are neccessary, perhaps we could start by rejecting some global leaders for their closeness from the source of terror, say Osama Bin Laden and the resistance in Afganistan.

Posted by felix gerena at July 12, 2005 12:25 PM

Felix, again I haven't suggested Western governments are not in part responsible for the chaos in the Middle East. As I posted above: "The West has blundered about in the Middle East and in many ways its actions in the past have created the problems we are now dealing with."

Read the history of Iran. I have. My wife grew up there. I have Iranian friends. Iran's radical government and the terrorism they've been exporting for decades amounts to a "collective thread of madness".

As to your suggestion to keep bin laden et al away from the negotiation table, Felix, he has no interest in it. Keeping someone away from something they have no interest in is unlikely to be effective. And I really don't class him as a "global leader." He represents the interests of a minority of the Muslim world, a fanatical minority not interested in reasoning to find a solution. I'll agree with calling him a global criminal.

canadian pharmacy viagra for cheap Posted by Noel Guinane at July 12, 2005 1:21 PM

Sorry Felix. I see that I misinterpreted your words.

I agree that negotiating politically is not for the feint of heart. However, if it comes down to a choice between that and terrorism, I'll opt for the political maneuvering, not only because the thought of deliberately blowing people up as they head into work on trains and busses is reprehensible, I think the political game has the better chance of success for everyone involved over the long-term.

Unfortunately, this is not what the terrorists are interested in doing. They are hiding behind an ideology that is loyal to no nation which makes the threat they pose to our way of life far more serious than any previously faced. The Communists were pure materialists and understood the consequences of unleashing World War III. The terrorists appeal is to the soul and not to the material things of this world. Given the same power as the Communists possessed, I believe the terrorists would not hesitate to unleash it. It wouldn't be a few trains and busses blown to bits. It would be entire cities, Western cities.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 12, 2005 2:53 PM

I've been away for a few days and missed this fascinating thread of discussions.

In my relfection about this tragedy I have identified five things we need to cope with all this ... faith, hope, time, prayer and strength.

There simply is no short term solution.

I am incredibly distressed to discover in our news over the last two days in Britain that the four bombers were British born and bred and totally integrated into the population. Scary.

Evil will simply not triumph.

The British stoicism and great inner strength will help us all in this and with the leadership if Tony Blair we are in good hands.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 14, 2005 3:36 AM

British born Pakistani radical Islamists must die once they are found guilty.

The Brits are far too giving - making citizens vulnerable to street Islamofascism - the moderates and conservatives of Britain must radically terminate even the essence of Islam terror.

Action is needed to seal borders and export radical Islamists in mass.

Posted by Sean at July 14, 2005 4:40 AM

I understand the tendency to make this a religious war drawn along the lines of good and evil (after all, who can deny that the people who blew themselves up, and trains packed with unsuspecting people, called themselves Muslims and were evil), but it's a trap if we use evil in a religious context and not just as an objective description of the act and the people responsible. If we fall into it we're playing into the hands of the terrorists, giving their 'cause' legitimacy. They want to draw every practising Muslim against their will into a religious war.

The terrorists may claim that they do these things in the name of the Islamic religion, but the vast majority of Muslims, as is true for the vast majority of people, are not evil. Murderers are, including Church of England British men who rape and murder children. All of us would be very offended to be in any way associated with them (wouldn't you be Trevor?). In the same way, Muslims would be offended at being associated with the terrorists and by lumping them in with a bunch of evil murderers, we invite their resentment and help the terrorist's 'cause'.

The terrorists want to be religious martyrs. I don't want to help give them a prestige they do not deserve.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 14, 2005 7:04 AM

Credibility for Muslims happens when the Muslim world cleans up its own act by aggressive action against its terrorists and by recognizing Israel throughout the Islam world and by actions that show it encourages other religions in its countries and by freedom of speech and by no dictatorships/royalty driven Nazi like government - in other words a long way to go - their main focus must be on stopping terrorism in their countries and with their exiles to EU/UK.

Love to see a G8 like Islam world that contributes to the world community with their oil financial prowess - why isn't that happening - because they ARE NOT a part of the world community. I too know Iran spouses [D.C. area] - and they are careful about even talking Islamfascism because of real paranoia about their safety and that of their families - they know the Islam framework is not to be trusted given its perverse state. Any Church of England comparison reads like perversion of an Iranian spouse.

Posted by Sean at July 14, 2005 7:14 AM

I agree with you Noel.

I do not want to be associated with any murderer and yes of course there are plenty of British people who are murderers in my own country. Dr Harold Shipman for instance was a Doctor and he murdered over 200 patients - probably many more - the important thing to remember is he was first a murderer second a doctor.

I don’t regard every doctor that way simply because of Dr Shipman – my career has been spent working with Doctors – 99% of whom I have the utmost respect for.

The terrorists who did these outrageous things in London are first of all murderers and secondly defined by their religion.

I do not want to be associated with any such evil - whoever perpetrated the crime and whatever their religion or race.

It is perhaps time individual accountability came into this discussion.

Evil will not prevail over good and we all know what is good.

As previously stated my five criteria to cope with all this are faith, hope, time, prayers and strength.

viagra in the states Posted by Trevor Gay at July 14, 2005 8:26 AM

Sean, you're casting doubt again on the credibility of Muslims everywhere, lumping them all in with the terrorists.

These things you propose are not going to happen just because we want them to or demand that they happen. They have a better chance of happening through clever negotiation and compromise, give and take, while having no tolerance for the violent extremists who see only their side of the equation and are blind, dumb and deaf to what everyone else wants.

No country can stop terrorists slipping into their societies and recruiting their citizens to their 'cause' anymore than they could prevent communist operatives slipping into their societies and recruiting their citizens to their 'cause' without themselves resorting to totalitarian regimes. Though you may not intend it, what you're proposing is for all countries to become dictatorships to solve the terrorist threat.

Should this be the best response we can come up with, one that creeps up on us for whatever set of reasons, you can kiss the freedoms you're currently enjoying goodbye. The best we could hope for is that dictators we 'elect' will not be too religious.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 14, 2005 8:48 AM

Noel - don't appreciate you playing back/distorting views with your spin. Is your wife Muslim - you mentioned Iranian before - maybe that is part a natural bias in your comments to support Islamists and/or the best of Islam which may exist but is dwarfed by the tsunami of Islam terror/bias/sexism acting up virtually world-wide.

Reads like someone Noel has been smoking opium and hullucinating for the Islam best. The cred gap for Muslims is so wide that they must 1. remedy their own perversion of governance which fosters radical terrorism - this is main stream on Al Jeezera and similar networks, 2. design governance that is in tune with the free world ... and pay for their own reform - plus pay reparations for murderous acts.

The UK/EU people deserve exponentially better than "freedoms" that allow the terrorist element to flourish in their Muslim/Islam mosques and hideouts. Obviously much should be done to enhance security of working class free world heroes - the UK raids of terrorist hideouts now is pleasing to see.

Typical "freedom preserving" liberals have wolves at their door - and go chase rabbits to be PC in tune with BBC/CBS. Meanwhile they field threatening phone calls, damage to their property and self - and pass it off as part of a "freedom oriented community".

Posted by Sean at July 14, 2005 10:24 AM

It is not my intention to distort any views here. I am wary about the ramifications of a religious lynching. Most Muslims really are decent. Some of them, like some of the radical born-again Christians, are more extreme and do deny the 2000 years of progress we have made and would like to see us go back to the dark ages (as seen by the recent rise in creationism). In my view it is ridiculous to deny science in favor of religion because one is based on fact (albeit incomplete facts) and the other on dogma and tradition. Nevertheless very few people, even those subscribing to the more extreme intrepetations of these traditional religions, are willing to advocate violence. Just because these crazies bomb in the name of Islam does not mean that they speak for all Muslims or that only Muslims can be responsible for their capture. This either does or will affect us all and we would want to do everything possible to encourage Muslim nations, particulalry the moderate ones, to assist in capturing terrorists and handing them over, rather than justifying our understandable anger towards the terrorists by tarring anyone practicing Islam with the same brush the terrorists deserve.

I think a different approach needs to be taken to extremist Muslim nations that deliberately export terrorism as a means to advance their interests, as I've posted above.

The people responsible are nothing more than criminals and I agree that they should experience the full force of justice as should all murderers.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 14, 2005 11:40 AM

Sorry Tom but what a load of bunkum. (Does that word still exist?)

"On the other hand, we must understand that even powerful nations like the U.S. and Spain and Britain cannot protect us."

Conspicious by its absence in our "global world of uncertainty" and indeed from your post is the word RESPONSIBILITY. (Admittedly you mention it once at the end in a dangerous turn to "survival of the most resilient.")

What everyone seems to forget is that WE ARE the "powerful nations like the U.S. and Spain and Britain", we are society, You and I. We are not a buunch of isolated self serving individuals, worried only about our speaking schedule being disrupted. What a cop out.

No where in your post do you mention that we created the world we live in, it didnt just happen to us.

Friedman was right about "empowered individuals" but empowered to do what? to surrender that power into the hands of a few and then lament whats happening in the world.

It is the G8 itself who has made "essential meaninglessness" and rushed decisions for as far back as i can remember.

I wish people would stop acting surprised and shocked about atrocities like London. Terrorists are not born they are made. As long as double standards and injustice are promulgated and condoned, we will have terrorists. We make the world we live in, its about time we started accepting responsibility for that.

A little disjointed admittedly, but c'mon Tom, wake up and smell the injustice, write about that, speak about that.

Ian

Posted by Ian Dodson at July 14, 2005 12:58 PM

Don't be ridiculous Ian. I have never owned a slave, but have had many people suggest that I (being white, on the suface at least) am in some way to blame for what happened generations ago. I agree it is not helpful to only see things from only one point of view, and certainly the west has handled its affairs in the middle east very poorly for quite some time, but a line must be drawn. We can behave in a civilized way in order to get attention for the things we hold dear, or we can blow people up. Sometimes it is necessary to fight for what we believe in, but attacking innocent civilians has always been considered atrocious, no matter when in history we look.

There is no justification for terrorism. There is no justification for murder. Either there is a line or there is barbarism and the destruction of all we have worked to learn and pass down to our children.

Posted by Cassandra Helm at July 14, 2005 4:40 PM

The actions of Palestinians opening fire on radical Hamas is encouraging this morning!

The news of entrenched Islam terror cells in the UK is not - the 4 deadboy radical mass murderers were groomed, trained, supported, funded = more of the same to terminate in the UK. Home grown Brits is perplexing - time for the liberal UK law enforcement to step up and get scientific about this.

Example: NYC this year predicts 465 murders city wide - this due to Giuliani designed law enforcement. 2245 NYC murders city wide used to be the number if you can believe that under the liberal idiot Dinkins and his democratic left-wing predecessors. The UK can design a terror-resistant society ... soon I'd trust - less radical "freedom" should be designed in to protect and preserve the "greatness" of UK heritage.

Noel - much of this is as plain as the nose on your face. There are mainly radical Islamists in mass in this fragile world who's world wide war against "infidels" - including nuclear killings - makes the war against Islamfascism WWIII.

It is intellectual dishonesty to try to tie new century creationism to dark ages and loop Christians into this - the cells are probably in your neighborhood = anyone connected to Muslim illegals must be turned in. Please ask your wife to proclaim on this website her love for and support of Israel as a Arab neighbor - and for the support of Christians and Jews as leaders in Iran.

Example - in Ashland, Oregon where I used to live - very liberal accepting community - an Islam ring of money laundering was discovered - terror money. So the 3 involved are now vacationing in Gitmo - tropical, peaceful Cuba. Plus free orange jumpsuits.

brand viagra on sale in canada Killing the power and money source to rad Islam is key. Islam world is defined by their actions and rhetoric - too many are organized to kill and maim free world peace lovers - until they remedy this, Muslims remain branded as perverse creators/trainers/financiers/lovers of a devil worshipping society.

Posted by Sean at July 15, 2005 4:19 AM

In this thread, Sean, I honestly think you are being unreasonable.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 15, 2005 4:30 AM

To my fellow American/Londoners,

My Father was English. He taught me by example, that you do what needs to be done at that moment and help others in the process. I saw him do that thousands of times throughout his life. He epitomized the English spirit. That spirit lives on because we've learned by observing Londoners during the Blitz and after, they have what it takes.

But we seem to be losing sight of the fact that this is the most serious problem facing our world today. Terrorism is not going to fade away. It is in the very fabic of our daily existance. Either by exploding bombs here or elsewhere or someone studing chemistry to create new bombs to create even greater widespread damage in some future date. To look away and think that we are safe, is unreality.

I agree with Tom that this is something we must deal with individually. Leaving it up solely to the partisan nature of folks in Washington or the city you live in is foolish and not proactive. We should be making more 'noise' letting Washington know that they are not handling this well at all - oh! and "shut up" and get busy accomplishing the task of making America more secure.

God bless and nurture the victims of these horrid acts.

Posted by Brenda at July 15, 2005 12:56 PM

"Fighting a European - Born Cancer" - that is the Washington Post piece in yesterdays paper - even another liberal paper, USA Today had "Lessons from London a Week After Bombings".

Main points are that Islamfascism is 2-3rd generation entrenched in Europe and that the Muslim world isn't doing nearly enough to kill the reality of Islamfascism and the mass murder Islamists carry out gleefully.

Plus bin Laden and violence is still supported by a remarkable [20-40%+] of the Muslim world population - varies per country of course.

Washinton Post brief article:

"Last Nov. 2 Theo van Gogh, Dutch filmmaker and descendant of the painter, was cycling through Amsterdam. He was accosted by Mohammed Bouyeri, who shot him six times as van Gogh pleaded, "We can still talk about it! Don't do it!" Bouyeri then cut his throat with a kitchen knife, practically severing his head. Bouyeri was not done.

He then took a five-page Islamist manifesto and with his knife impaled it on van Gogh's chest.

On trial now in the Netherlands, Bouyeri is unrepentant.

In court he turned to van Gogh's grieving mother and with infinite cruelty said to her, "I do not feel your pain."

He feels instead glory. Van Gogh had made a short film about the oppression of Muslim women. Bouyeri was acting "purely in the name of my religion," championing his faith by butchering a filmmaker critical of it.

Bouyeri is no newly arrived immigrant. Nor is he, like the Sept. 11 hijackers, a cosmopolitan terrorist sent abroad to kill. He was born and bred in Holland. Likewise, three of the four London bombers were second-generation Pakistani Brits.

The most remarkable discovery is that Europe's second- and third-generation Muslim immigrants are more radicalized than the first. One reasonably non-political and non-radical Muslim activist, raised in the suburbs of Paris, explained himself (to the Wall Street Journal) as having "immigrated to France at the local maternity ward."

The fact that native-born Muslim Europeans are committing terrorist acts in their own countries shows that this Islamist malignancy long predates Iraq, long predates Afghanistan and long predates Sept. 11, 2001.

What Europe had incubated is an enemy within, a threat that for decades Europe simply refused to face.

Early news reports of the London bombings mentioned that police found no suspects among known Islamist cells in Britain. Come again? Why in God's name is a country letting known Islamist cells thrive, instead of just rolling them up?

British Islamists had spoken of a "covenant of security" under which Britain would be spared Islamic terrorism so long as it allowed radical clerics free rein. Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed, for example, a Syrian-born, exiled Saudi cleric granted asylum 19 years ago, openly preaches jihad against Britain. He is sought by the press for comment all the time. And, a lovely touch, he actually lives on the British dole -- even though he rejects the idea of British citizenship, saying, "I don't want to become a citizen of Hell."

One of the reasons Westerners were so unprepared for this wave of Islamist terrorism, not just militarily but psychologically, is sheer disbelief. It shockingly contradicts Western notions of progress. The savagery of Bouyeri's act, mirroring the ritual human slaughter by Abu Musab Zarqawi or Daniel Pearl's beheaders, is a return to a primitiveness that we in the West had assumed a progressive history had left behind.

Our first response was, therefore, to simply sweep this contradiction under the rug. Put the first World Trade Center bombers on trial and think it will solve the problem. Even today there are many Americans and even more Europeans who believe that after Sept. 11 the United States should just have done Afghanistan -- depose the Taliban and destroy al Qaeda's sanctuary -- and gone no further, thinking that would solve the problem.

But the problem is far deeper. It is essentially a civil war within a rival civilization in which the most primitive elements are seeking to gain the upper hand. Sept. 11 forced us to intervene massively in this civil war, which is why we are in Iraq. There, as in Afghanistan, we have enlisted millions of Muslims on the anti-Islamist side.

But what about the vast majority of European Muslims, the 99 percent who are peace-loving and not engaged in terror? They must also join the fight. They must actively denounce not just -- what is obvious -- the terrorist attacks, but their source: Islamist ideology and its practitioners.

Where are the fatwas issued against Osama bin Laden? Where are the denunciations of the very idea of suicide bombing? Europeans must demand this of all their Muslim leaders. They must also dismantle and destroy all "known" Islamist cells before trains and buses are blown up.

A modest beginning might be removing the likes of Sheik Omar -- and Bouyeri -- from the teat of the infidel taxpayer: "He [Bouyeri] had the time to plan this," van Gogh's mother told the court, "because for three years he was on unemployment benefits." Decadence is defined not by a civilization's art or music but ultimately by its willingness to simply defend itself."

Surviving Nazis and the Blitz is one thing - the smart non-Chamberlain appeasing radical aggressive proaction to kill Islamoterrorism is another - and the strength and energy to do so must reside with EU and especially the UK. Right now judging by actions and rhetoric - the crusade is on till death do we part - trying to be optimistic but Islamic governance is a tsunami of perversion and decay.

Muslims must step up big time to gain even an ounce of street cred let alone respect for their "peace loving religion".

Posted by Sean at July 16, 2005 7:34 AM

I think for the sake of our own freedom our judicial process has to be observed no matter what the threat.

Some say our society is handicapped by ridiculous ideals when it comes to fighting terrorism, emphasizing individual rights regardless of creed, color, etc. In other societies, totalitarian societies, the security system would simply round up anyone remotely suspected of supporting terrorism and either shoot them or imprison them. And there would be no judicial system or free press to worry about, but nations that have resorted to doing this did not stop the guerilla attacks because the obvious oppression encouraged others to join the fight.

I do not think upholding individual rights regardless of creed etc. makes us weak. It is one of the things that makes us strong and I would not like to see it disappear in a gradual and unplanned slide into a totalitarian state based on a blanket intolerance for the Islamic faith that is justified as the best means to contain its violent extremists. I think this is something we should watch out for because today it is mostly people of Middle Eastern appearance who are suspected of being terrorists. Tomorrow it could be Caucasians, former Christians even, Timothy McVeigh lookalikes, who converted to the extreme interpretation of the Muslim faith the terrorists say they subscribe to simply because they like the idea of violence as some people of any religious persuasion do. Historically, religion has been a very popular excuse for slaughtering other people.

If we fall into the trap of drawing the "war on terror" along religious lines, we are doing exactly what the terrorists want us to do. It plays into their hands by giving them legitimacy for their ‘cause’, a legitimacy in my view they do not deserve. Just because one murderer 'says' he murdered in the name of a religion does not mean he is the definitive spokesperson for that religion. He is a criminal nutter. Period. And criminal nutters are by no means exclusive to one religion. You can try to justify killing someone by saying God told you to, or a teapot circling Uranus told you to. What matters more than the excuse is the crime and that the person(s) responsible (whether they committed the act personally or were responsible for organizing it) is held accountable for their actions and punished for them to the full extent of the law.

As time goes on, and our tolerance of moderate Muslims living among us begins to weaken in response to additional terrorist attacks done in the name of their religion, our resentment of anyone practicing Islam could encourage more of them to believe that the extremists among them are right - it is a war against Islam and those who practice it are being persecuted. Helping to create this outlook within our own societies would not serve our purposes in defeating terrorism. It is more likely to provide the terrorists with additional recruits. Far better in my view to call the terrorists what they really are - murderers and criminals - and look to encourage, not mandate, cooperation from moderate Muslim leaders, nationally and locally, to dissuade others from joining the terrorist’s ‘cause’ while demonstrating no tolerance for those who do.

Combined with going after countries who support or export terrorism by seeking to replace their totalitarian governments with democratically elected ones, helping to ensure their economies prosper and that they can govern and defend themselves, are very big, long-term steps to take and are bound to be neither perfect nor painless, but I think this strategy has a better chance of succeeding than the alternative which would allow those in favor of using terrorism to solve problems to grow stronger while we talk. In effect, it would amount to appeasement.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 16, 2005 2:46 PM

Sean, have you ever given money to the IRA so that they could buy weapons and use them to murder people? Do you despise the IRA and therefore advocate the slaughter of all Irish? Both are wrong.

I have been surprised again and again at the tolerance of English people who do not automatically assume that just because I'm Irish I am a member of the IRA. It has meant that my family and I have not been living in a sea of hostility, something I appreciate.

I don't know what your personal experience is. Some of mine is that I lived in New York City for 13 years. I was there for 9/11. I watched it happen from a 40th floor Midtown office building with a clear view to the site. My family lived close to the site and also watched it happen. I knew and did business with people who were in the buildings at the time of the attack. I walked through the rubble afterwards.

In New York, I met, socialized and did business with all kinds of people. I knew Israeli people. I knew Japanese people. I knew African people. I knew Russian people. I knew Indian people. I knew Iranian people, Sicilian people, British people, Chinese people, Egyptian people, South American people and a large number of New York City blacks; people from nearly every part of the world with widely different viewpoints and beliefs. Some were just acquaintances and some were genuine friends while others didn't like me very much at all, but we all managed to get along and do business together.

My point in telling you this is that it is unreasonable to make generalizations about people either because of their religious beliefs, skin color, education, status in their community, political bias, whatever. We have to take people as they come - individually.

America is founded on a tolerance for people of all cultures and backgrounds and Europe aspires to the same ideals. There will always be extremists, whether it's the British National Party, al-Quaida, Nazis, the IRS (just kidding!). Each of us has a duty to be moderate, to use our heads and think for oursleves and avoid an understandable tendency to lash out against anyone who may resemble the crazy murderers who need to be stopped.

If you believe in God, God gave you a brain. If you believe in science, you have a brain. Either way it's there to be used.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 17, 2005 5:42 AM

Noel - it is unique in the recent history of the world that so many people - Muslims - approve of mass murder homicide fascism to promote Islam - 88% recent PEW poll in Jordan - less in other countries. The point is that .00001% is too much - how can Muslims be such idiots - and so disconnected from liberty, freedom, free enterprise, et. al? Too many Islamsist love to sneak in blood shed - plus they love to kill other Islam sects - Sunni/Kurds, you name it.

The consistency is Islam and fascism - racism, sexism, homicide, anti-Jews - Islam has cornered the world-wide market on hate - and are so hated by free societies. The somewhat newness of the scope is that Islam now wants a world-wide [mainly West, Japan, Russia] killing spree in the name of Islam rather than past more regional freakshows.

How could the 4 Leeds parents not know about their fascist murdering kids? That is Islam perversion to the ultimate - pleading nonsense about not knowing and/or they are Islamist radicals themselves turning their back on homocide reality and/or Islam culture is so conniving and dishonest and devil worshipping that you can sneak it past low IQ parents.

Granted there are Muslims who sincerely want peace and prosperity and love Jews/Christians/Buddhists, etc. - but where are they? And how can so many in crack cocaine / opium fantasy ever think [PEW poll] that they'd not be killed for the scum dogs they are given their approval/conniving promotion of homicidal maniacs and bin Laden as cultural hero?

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A Chamberlainesque approach of "hoping for the Nazi best" isn't working for the UK - and unlike WWII - the USA taxpayers won't bail you out - time to turn off the BBC and get to work - even if it means turning in those of your in-laws' Iranian heritage - what could be more poetic for a whistleblower?

I'm pulling for ABT in today's Open - anybody but Tiger - Monty winning would be the best story - Goosen the 2nd best to me anyway.

Posted by Sean at July 17, 2005 7:49 AM

Sean, anyone reading your posts would think that you were perfectly willing to build a homemade bomb, go into a mosque and detonate it, killing and maiming dozens of people because you believed them to be extremists.

I am sure you would not do something like this, but the language you are using to describe a group of people, most of whom have nothing to do with terrorism, would suggest extreme views on your part.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 17, 2005 2:22 PM

As long as diatribes like those we've been subjected here and elsewhere continue, the Muslims will have difficulty cornering that market Sean refers to.
Any chance we'll get back to Tom P's reason for posting this in the first place.
Probably not.

Posted by Ciaran McCabe at July 17, 2005 3:00 PM viagra price 100mg

Au contraire Noel - your words tie your name/comments to IRA terror, bombings in mosques, and killing and maiming dozens of people - that is your extreme language. Plus you have reported yourself as a 1. whistleblower/informant, 2. and someone who has to field threatening home phone call[s], 3. additionally people are egging and keying your vehicle. That is way too much of a negative vortex lifestyle for most.

Posted by Sean at July 17, 2005 4:54 PM

Well, Sean, that's why I'm moving - the eggings are getting to be too much. I can handle hostile language, but they're egging me on to become a radical neo-fascist anti vandal dictator and we can't have that. Either I bomb them or I blow town so I'm choosing to high-tail it outta here. Santa Fe looks nice :)

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 17, 2005 5:28 PM

just came to partly read this debate here today.

my sentiments: i cannot read any of the brutal and ignorant postings. i am not saying i cannot understand them - that might have possibly happened if the author would not have used such a language - which he possibly thinks is provocative and cool.
i simply cannot read this stuff.

actions - and words of hate - to me they are the same. they make my haertbeat stop. they make me turn in disgust.

Posted by jens at July 18, 2005 12:46 PM pfizer soft viagra for sale

In all fairness there is something of a difference between words and actions and while it's always a good idea to resist the urge to use overly dramatic language to express a point of view, I can understand people releasing their frustration anonymously in a public forum.

Posted by Noel Guinane at July 18, 2005 1:55 PM