Comments

I agree with your views on MBA's - there is something profoundly wrong about the whole thing. Although I speak from the perspective of someone who has never having done one. I studied philosophy, politics and economics at Oxford (hence my interest in your blog posting) and I always felt that if you want to learn about business, the best thing is to go out and do it. So even at Oxford I was setting up first a college magazine, then a Radio Station. I found that what goes on outside of your official 'educational' time is far more educational than what happens in your tutorials. And that the real learning comes from there. But I still wonder (from time to time) if there isn't any benefit in an MBA. Anyway I set-up and run my own business, and have now developed a new concept, the hyperthinker (http://hyperthinker.zn.be/) which maybe could one day be turned into an MBA...:) - the MBA to end all MBAs?

Posted by Philip Weiss at September 19, 2005 1:31 PM

Hmmm...methinks it's well past time we rethink the whole "Masters" idea as it applies to business. In today's increasingly flat (and virtual) world, mastery is a fleeting illusion at best - and not something easily obtained from pure book learning.

Full disclosure: Back in the day, I dropped out of an MBA program (this after I'd been in the workforce for several years) when I realized that I was doing more teaching in the study groups than the professor was doing in class.

Posted by Mary Schmidt at September 19, 2005 3:07 PM

One idea came to my mind about why there are so many finance MBAs, marketing MBAs, etc., and only three schools for leadership. What are employers asking for? They know what they're getting with a "finance" or "marketing" guy, but "leadership" . . . "Hmmmm, we're all leaders here, so what makes this guy special? Better move on to someone who has what we need." Hence, the finance and marketing people get the jobs, and the "leadership" people don't.

One solution: Have a leadership emphasis in ALL their classes, and a major part of the grade is based on a student's demonstrated leadership (e.g., Mary Schmidt ends up teaching the other students in her small group). End result: the school graduates leaders in every specialty, instead of bland thoughtless uncreative business workers.

Yeah, one can always dream . . .

Posted by Ron at September 19, 2005 5:45 PM

Tom, While I certainly take your point and agree with you on the need for "leadership in education", I'm curious why you placed my alma mater (Air Force Academy in C. Springs) in quotes when you referred to it--plus USMA and USNA--as a university.

Posted by Chuck at September 19, 2005 8:22 PM

Chuck, no hidden meaning intended. I grew up within rock-throwing distance of the USNA, and my love affair lingers. (Most of my high school friends went there.) I guess when I think of "university" I think of ivy covered minds behind ivy covered walls. Not so the service academies. (I think you should be giving me kudos. For those of us who grew up with only the USNA & USMA, to acknowledge the nouveau USAAF at all is a big step.)

Posted by tom peters at September 20, 2005 12:58 AM

USAFA, see what I mean.

Posted by tom peters at September 20, 2005 12:59 AM

I have an MBA and only after working for a couple of years do I know what I learnt in those two years of MBA - what the books say can never paint the real picture - one has to get out there and bite the dust! My goals when I was doing my MBA were to complete my assignments, papers and clear my exams and I certainly did not know of any other fellow student who's goals differed.

I've tried getting in touch with a variety of B-Schools in India to start a full-fledged course on Innovation, but the response has been less than mild.

MBA or not, confidence and common sense are still my best partners. I sold the MBA books for a price per kilogram!

Posted by Naina Redhu at September 20, 2005 1:05 AM

OK, Tom, kudos given. We fly jet aircraft now, too.

Posted by Chuck at September 20, 2005 1:11 AM

Tom - you use a Harley Davidson quote in your presentations: “What we sell is the ability for a 43-year-old accountant to dress in black leather, ride through small towns and have people be afraid of him.” I don't know either Messrs Hopwood or Mayer but what I do know is that we ought to give the new guy a chance to put his stamp on things. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of positive discrimination - "It's time we had a Marketing guy in this job so let's pass over some candidates who appear more suitable." Let's judge Mr. Mayer in 18 months and maybe find out he's a radical design nut or has introduced a compulsory transformation course. (PS I'm not a Finance guy!!!)

Posted by Mark JF at September 20, 2005 1:38 AM

OUCH>>>>

As a guy who completed an executive MBA at the Rotterdam School of Management and thinks that he made a good investment, allow me to post something in the defence of the MBA.

The MBA is not supposed to make you a master of a certain trade, or make you brilliant at design, sales or whatever. Only working in the field gives you that credibillity.

It's supposed to give you a broad understanding of several fields, a toolkit of problem identification (and solving) methods and a vast network of professionals - who are experts at something. Those are tangible benefits. The intangible benefits of course are a strong brand to associate yourself with, a group of new friends, and a modified worldview (to quote Seth Godin).

That's it...!

Mary (Schmidt), I'm sorry that you felt that you spent more time explaining things to your classmates instead of the professor and thus felt "cheated". I spent huge amounts of time explaining to my classmates, and went out looking for people who spent huge amounts of time explaining stuff to me.. That way we both learnt.. But it's true.. I learnt as much in the hallways chatting with classmates as I did attending lectures.

Maybe my MBA was different.. maybe I'm just a little biased.. but hey.. If it hadn't been for my MBA, I wouldn't have started my current business.

Warm regards,

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at September 20, 2005 5:01 AM

Arun

You make excellent points and I don't knock MBA's for the sake of it - After all I got one too!!! I can see Mary’s point but I think it is brilliant being a student and educating your teachers. My ‘Life Supervisor’ is my former MA Supervisor – the wonderful Professor George Giarchi of Plymouth University here in England. George is now a sprightly 77 year old - going on 18. He has always told me he learns more from his students than they do from him. This is a belief I took into my operational management role for many years and whenever I have been a mentor for people I feel I learn as much from them than they do from me.

Posted by Trevor Gay at September 20, 2005 5:13 AM

I still come back to my point, which is: "Why are we so prepared to dismiss someone simply because s/he's an Accountant?" It may be that, at this time, The Accountant happens to be an imaginative, reforming and transforming soul who wants to radically change his Biz School - or BS, as we might ambiguously refer to them...!

Moan about the selection board and their terms of reference by all means, especially if they've gone for a conservative, more-of the-same choice or if that's how they require the person to operate. But I still think it's fundamentally wrong to pigeon-hole people per se and to write off someone because s/he's an accountant or whatever else.

Posted by Mark JF at September 20, 2005 6:58 AM

Hi Trevor,
Keep up the mentorship work! It's good to do, and perhaps even better - to preach!

Hi Mark (JF)

I couldn't agree with you more..

To take me as an example, I've worked as a chemical engineer, process engineer, software engineer, project manager, product manager, marketing manager and now I'm an entrepreneur.

Another friend of mine is a russian nuclear physicist turned accountant turned management consultant..

Which pigeonholes might we fit?

I think at the end of the day, it boils down to being open to new ideas and helping coworkers execute properly.

On a side note, the head of one of India's most illustrious business families and conglomerates - the AV Birla group is a gentleman called Kumaramangalam Birla - A chartered accountant by training.

:-))

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at September 20, 2005 7:28 AM

in defense of the MBA... I am currently in an Exec MBA program (Smith, University of Maryland), and a full third of our program is dedicated to "Mastery" topics which include Leadership, Innovation, Communication, Human Capital, and more. Another third of the program is self-directed projects, working on solutions to real-life problems from each of our industries (Everything is a Project, right?). The final third is the standard stuff -- Finance, Marketing, Accounting, Supply Chain, IT.

I think the Smith School is getting it right, or at least on the right track.

Posted by wolske at September 20, 2005 8:51 AM

Don't forget two other Federal Academies; Kings Point, NY (the United States Merchant Marine Academy) and New London, CT (United States Coast Guard Academy.

Posted by Steve at September 20, 2005 8:59 AM

The largest percentage of graduates from the top business schools go into either management consulting or finance.

Aside from the end-investor/borrower experience, what place does design have in finance? The most popular system used for financial market data is provided by Bloomberg and it looks god awful. It's used heavily both in Equity and Fixed Income buy-side and sell-side markets. They have no incentive to improve the interaction design of the user interface because their users have decades of experience and familiarity using their system. They improve the communication design of their documentation and user education experiences but still haven't touched the user interface!

If a student has freshly minted an mba from Wharton and has aspirations to become a sell-side trader of some sort of exotic derivative, how could they apply their advanced knowledge of design from school in their career? It doesn't matter if the software they use looks like vomit as long as it's successfully identifying arbitrage opportunities! It doesn't matter how flashy their performance reports are as long as the numbers beat estimates.

I guarantee you that the profit-generating trader sticks around longer than the other with not-so-hot numbers with a damn nice visual representation of it.

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Think about it, Tom. You're a wealthy man who has an expected return from your portfolio. You might love the emotional elements your advisor / portfolio manager is spinning into your relationship but if he's not performing you'll go elsewhere, period. You want outstanding emotional design in finance-- Beat your benchmark every quarter. Your client will be elated.

Posted by Dau at September 20, 2005 1:55 PM

I have done masters in International management. I must say, I did the course only to spread my wings to fly high. When I sit down to calculate the ROI from my masters programme, it depresses me.

However, I am working in a boutique consultancy firm in London and the 8 months work experience has taught which any business school will never teach me theoretically. Business schools never ‘US’ teach to take risks, handle fuming clients with a smile and convince them to see our point, they never teach to think out of the box and refute the existing system.

I believe in the philosophy ‘life is a lot beyond being told what to do’.
Business schools teach stuff which is not relevant to the realities of business today. Unsurprisingly, many Ivy league graduates end up in scams with big consultancy firms or botch up a company’s brand image in the market (you know what I am talking about, Swiss air!)

From my personal experience, I reckon, a 16 year old school drop out in Mumbai Dalal Street can tell me smart strategies to make money on BSE Sensex than an Ivy-league-graduated-consultant.

Anyways, the argument is Does B schools really add value to students who flock at them with awe and enthusiasm?
I affirm with vehemence: No! Sad but true.

Posted by Manohar Suresh at September 20, 2005 4:06 PM

Are all MBAs are created equal?!?
I'm actually a practising designer (kinda stumbled upon this website after buying the Tom Peters - design book), I was actually thinking of doing an MBA perhaps in a few years or so. To be honest I'm still trying to figure out what makes one better than another (other than historic brand reputation). But ROTMAN seems to have a good programme IMO, emphasizing heuristics and abductive reasoning. I know what you mean about armchair theories and implementation, Soft systems methodology is such a neat concept IMO (very useful for adjusting your mindset/worldview, esp for unframed problem solving and big picture thinking - that encompasses top-down as well as bottom-up thinking) which I think can help with this. If not an MBA - the IIT is a good school for innovative thinking http://www.id.iit.edu/
(I think grads who attend IIT probably will put IDEO or Doblin at the top of their 'dream job' list rather than McKinsey though).

regards

Posted by Soleilmoon at September 20, 2005 7:43 PM

I agree that now that "the guy" is a done deal, he should get a chance. Nonetheless I'll go down with the ship contending that the typical MBA mindset aims toward finance or economic types. A business school mentor of mine at Stanford once said to me, "You know, it's a funny thing. When kids come for their MBAs, they gravitate toward finance. Then 10 years later, when they're thinking about coming back for an executive program, it's the people and organization change programs that are most popular. I guess that's what a decade in the real world will do to you." (Amen.)

Posted by tom peters at September 21, 2005 2:52 PM

Since were on trading, It could be argued that the difference between 'open outcry' and 'electronic trading desks' is design.

Posted by guest at September 22, 2005 12:08 PM

Design is the alignment of requirements with the constraints of the realization media. That means that everything is designed, not just the aesthetic. In Billy Joel's, "Piano Man," "... he was a real estate novelist," says that he designed real estate, and that the land itself told a story. Enron is a story of accountants designing. It isn't the only story of accountants designing. It's what accountants do. The numbers are left to the bookkeepers.

Posted by David Locke at September 25, 2005 2:08 PM

I've just completed my MBA at the Said Business School, University of Oxford. I had a great year, feel that I learned a lot (coming from an IT background) and that the course has given me some great opportunities. So maybe an MBA isn't for everybody, but it was worthwhile for me.

With regards to the Dean of the school, Anthony Hopwood has been doing some fantastic things at the business school, getting new projects off the ground. And yes, Colin Mayer is indeed a finance guy. But he's well respected both inside and outside of the school, and he knows virtually everybody! He's a highly successful fund-raiser. Believe me, there are plenty of visionaries and inspired faculty at the Said Business School, and it's a team that keeps getting stronger. I'm sure that the new Dean recognises this talent and knows how to harness it. After all, surely good management isn't about doing everything yourself, it's being able to build a great team and use the whole team as the means to achieve success.

Posted by Ian Howlett at October 2, 2005 1:37 PM