Comments

sales is an art, and nobody can teach art. It only comes thru practice !!

Posted by /pd at January 31, 2006 4:12 PM

We are all in sales. We sell our ideas, our services, our passions. Sales is the foundation of success. So, I agree, sales skills are SO VALUABLE, then need to be taught to everyone! Successful people sell thier teams, their ideas, themselves.

Posted by Dave Holland at January 31, 2006 4:25 PM

It's because sales seem so plebeian. You don't go to school to be in "sales." That's in-the-trenches work. That's beneath the educated and the successful. We'd rather fancy ourselves in charge of sales people. You know, (those people).

We'd rather give marching orders than do the marching. We're executive officers, not the enlisted rank-and-file.

/pd, no one can teach art? Oh contrar! You just can't teach it where talent is absent.

Another problem is that sales are tied directly to results and no one wants to be accountable for THAT.

Posted by DUST!N at January 31, 2006 5:40 PM

The most critical to success factor for selling is to be a great listener. It is not something that someone can teach you. As a salesman you learn it the hard way by losing sales and making mistakes where an open mouth undoes a closed deal. Teachers and academics in many cases don't listen well. They tend to "tell" people things, because who knows more about the subject than they do. The only problem they have is in selling and executing what they know. The telling is by far the easy part. Ask any company exec how many really good consultants (salespeople) they work with? We still just "don't get no respect" in spite of keeping the world going around every day.

Posted by Steve at January 31, 2006 5:51 PM

There is far too much to respond with an open prompt like this . . .

Tom: Was sales ever really taught in the same way marketing is taught today? I have always believed that sales is the heavy-lifting part of the job the marketing wouldn't/couldn't/can't/won't do (at least explains why college profs don't wan't to teach it).

Also, of course sales is an art, and of course it can be taught. There are some underlying attributes that make succeeding more likely, but IT CAN BE TAUGHT. For those that think it can't, go take an art class and see if your drawing/painting/etc. skills don't improve.

Dustin and Steve are spot on.

Posted by S. Anthony Iannarino at January 31, 2006 6:19 PM

Yes yes yes! right on the mark (yet again). I ask people doing business courses to ask their teachers, lecturers etc if they have indeed run a business... wow does that cause a stir.

A while back I taught sessionally in a tertiary 'institute' in the business dept and was amazed at how many of the staff knew little about business from the 'pointy end', the academic end was okay but it often lacks the real cred of running a business, small or large.

Sales... a great thing to be taught (yes the experience and art side is required!), it should be compulsory that MBA's etc do the sales stuff so they can get to the 'presentation side' and know what selling is "Professionally presenting information on products and or services to effectively meet the customers needs" Flexibility is the key! It's not about manipulating its more about influencing.

Hey what if in the sign up ohase of an MBA or other business course the prospective student had to sell the staff opn why they should be in the course... Innovation ROCKS!

Posted by Steve Gray at January 31, 2006 7:06 PM

In defense of B.schools (again). I'm in an Exec MBA program, and Innovation was part of our Mastery sessions. While I haven't seen anything specifically on Sales (probably for all the reasons mentioned above) we have one-on-one coaching sessions, and one of the keys things we identified is the need for me to learn the art and subtleties of Persuasion. Not Sales specifically, but in the same vein.

I think my program gets this part right.

Posted by wolske at January 31, 2006 7:58 PM

I almost forgot, for self-study in this area I'm reading "Persuasion: the art of getting what you want" (Lakhani). On deck: "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" (Cialdini), and Gitomer's "Little Red Book of Selling". And Tom's slides of course.

Any other book suggestions? I know, I know you can't learn this from a book, the best way to learn is to go out and actually try to sell something....

Posted by wolske at January 31, 2006 8:06 PM

Talk about missing the point!
Talk to anyone in sales and they will tell you that selling is solving the customer's problem.
Why do you think DeWalt and Craftsman sell so many 1/4 inch drill bits? Not because anyone wants a dippy stick of stainless steel, but because they want a perfect 1/4 inch hole.

Posted by Mike M at January 31, 2006 10:28 PM

If one were in our industry (chicken) they'd see that just about any 'ole country boy can be a salesman. Doesn't take a fancy degree. It takes knowing what the buyer needs, what you've got to offer, and working your arse off to put the two together.

This 'ole country boy may have some trouble making good business decisions b/c his moves will be based on gut or instinct instead of and careful calculation and deliberate planning.

I'd like our org to change from the 'ole country boy to the better equipped salesman. My question has been, who is better: the b school grad turned salesman or the science school grad turned salesman? Any thoughts?

Posted by Brad Respess at February 1, 2006 1:24 AM

Hahaha,

You're quite right. I did get an MBA, and started a business halfway through the program. And very quickly realised that I knew nothing of how to sell, and I learnt how to sell the hard way

- reaching out to prospects
- pursuing leads down
- visiting visiting visiting customers, listening, providing feedback, and promising stuff.
- Keeping promises on time and sending out proposals (which take time to do, if you do them right)
- watering down proposals to fit budget and outcome requirements (go from 'big and expensive' to 'small and executable')
- taking the sale..

I'll admit I have a long way to go, but these were some of my thoughts on the subject.

If any of you has any tips on "managing the sales funnel" - I would be very happy to hear of them!

Warm regards,
Arun

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at February 1, 2006 1:34 AM

Message for Brad Repress...

For senior folk, You can get both.. most MBAs do have a science background.

For junior folk, it depends on how technology intensive your business is and if the technology can be used as a sales argument. If so, go for the science grad turned salesman or rather salesperson type.

If tech cannot be a differentiator (at least in sales), go for a business graduate turned salesperson

2 caveats:
* Make sure that the person you're hiring is incredibly committed to making it work
* Mentor and teach the guy/girl how to sell and support him or her.

In general, I'd go for the science (preferably agriculture grad) turned salesperson. Simply because, it's easy to learn "business" concepts so the transition for a science grad to business is relatively easy and can be done on the job. But it's pretty tough to learn science concepts on the job... :-))

Good luck with your hiring decisions. And remember the person is more important than the degree he or she holds.

Warm regards,
Arun

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at February 1, 2006 1:42 AM

Oh I'm sorry Brad, your name was Respess. Too bad I cannot edit my own post, but I apologise for the typo.

Arun

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at February 1, 2006 1:44 AM

TOM YOU MISSED A "RIDICULOUSLY OBVIOUS THOUGHT ON SELLING"... (or maybe it's points 16 and 97)

PATIENCE: It takes time to win that first meeting with the client - in some cases up to a year.. Be prepared to wait.

Your document was a really nice read.. and yes, the ideas were obvious, and yes, even I haven't had the chance follow all of them. Thank you for them.

Warm regards,
Arun

Posted by Arun Sadhashivan at February 1, 2006 2:11 AM

Why don't we teach sales - because the world is trying to get rid of sales people !!!

Sorry I couldn't resist that - Seriously though, Sales has an image problem. People think of multi million doller corporate software deals in the same way that they view a dodgy used car salesman.

Sales do tend to be very different animals - do theyr need more training from B schools. My biggest concern is not teaching sales to business people but teaching business to sales people. Sales people often progress high in organisations without any idea of any other way of interacting with people other than sales

Posted by PaulH at February 1, 2006 3:18 AM

How can you tell someone who has a classic sales training anyway?

I am not qualified to talk about sales because I have never had any training in that area. If classic sales training produces some of the people who knock on my door to sell me alternative providers for my telephone, electricity or gas than I am delighted I never had any sales training.

I can only speak as a customer and to me a good sales person will make me feel special. They will listen to me. They will not bombard me with company speak and technical jargon. They will convince me I can trust them. They will have passion for their product (but not too much of it please!!) They will make me want to buy it. Most of all they will have empathy. I want technical competence sure but most of all I want a person who values me and my opinion. And of course I want simplicity

It sounds to me more like an art than a science.

I just love Professor Gary Hamel's quote:

“Customers are more cynical - they can smell bullshit a mile away”

Just some rambling ‘Brit thoughts’ on a bright Wednesday morning in Birmingham where all in the garden is Rosy – I’m just waiting for some well meaning classically trained sales person to ruin my day I guess :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at February 1, 2006 4:07 AM

One of my bugbears… And could spend many hours ranting on this single topic, but I'll save you all and hold myself to a few points...

Show me anywhere that teaches sales... You may find a few ex-salesmen that are filling the gaps - teaching you how they used to sell. Usually they teach what I would call in a haphazard way. Things like focusing on only closing tactics, cold calling techniques etc. Never as a complete package (assuming it would fit in a complete package!).

I've yet to see (and I've spent considerable time searching) for someone that has a course that will teach a beginner salesperson the basics. You know, things like how to prospect, manage time, talk on the phone.

I can spend years and get a PhD in a dead language, but I can't get a single subject that teaches sales... (no offence to anyone that has spent years getting a PhD in a dead language).

I've learnt (and continue to learn) sales the hard way like most others. Gumboots and a hose, trial and error, hard knocks, the deep end. I've gone and done the worst sales jobs out there, I've chosen to take on jobs others hate, so I can get better at this secret skill. And it’s not that hard of a job, it’s only a challenge because usually you are left alone with no training,

Sales is not just about convincing a luckless buyer to hand over cash for a lemon, it also is used when negotiating a contract, shopping for a new outfit, haggling for cheaper goods, finding the ideal mate, complaining to your phone company about a bill. So I really can’t understand how it’s escaped being authorised, sanitised, and certified…

But you mentioned the war … I think you got away with it.

Posted by Michael Vanderdonk at February 1, 2006 4:07 AM

As a Communications graduate myself, I would suggest incorporating robust modules of Advanced Communication in lieu of sales theory. The power of word selection on inferrence - critical listenting - advanced public speaking/presentation skills - writing persuasively, eurythmy and nonverbal implications on messages - the art of silence - power speak - power writing - prose - negotiation skills, objectivity - etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

Posted by Tom O'Leary at February 1, 2006 4:46 AM

Who said 'Sales is an art'? Rubbish - it's a career!

Who uttered 'Sales can't be taught'? Foolish - how do you think you got where you are today? You're telling me you learnt nothing along the way!

I've long said we do not prepare our children to take on sales as a profession, and still nothing has changed that fact.

You CAN teach sales. You CAN prepare Professional Salespeople for the world outside school.

But just as I CANNOT be a surgeon, because I do not have a natural propensity for it, not everyone CAN be good at sales.

The fact that no-one teaches sales skills in school simply means salespeople are behind everyone else in developing those skills, and then find out they're not very good at the job after all.

1. Teach professional sales skills in school.

2. Children can find out if they're good at it or not before they get a job, and so not waste their time if they're bad at it.

3. Professional salespeople will generate greater customer satisfaction (through proper selling, not hard selling), salespeople will get a better image and businesses will ultimately win.

Simple...

Posted by Stewart Rogers at February 1, 2006 4:53 AM

As an editor, I can tell you that we don't just never learn about sales at biz school, but no-one ever writes about it, either. If anyone knows any good journos on the subject of sales, I would love to hear

Posted by Adam Leyland at February 1, 2006 6:15 AM

Tom, catch my Chairman's post on sales yesterday. Right with you on the importance of Sales, the perjorative cloud cast upon the salesman, and the need to address the issue. We are all salesman, aren't we? www.dailyspeculations.com

Posted by Jamie Fee at February 1, 2006 9:01 AM

Wonderful!

I think so many of us get so wrapped up in marketing for marketing's sake that we lose sight of the fact that it's all designed to improve sales.

Granted, we want to make the lives of our clients better, but they won't benefit from our offering until they buy.

Great as always Tom!

Posted by Kevin Behringer at February 1, 2006 9:24 AM

Adam,

Probably the best "journos" on sales are the email newsletters from the likes of Jeffery Gitomer, Bizjournals.com, Sales and Marketing magazine (salesandmarketing.com), and the small business section of BusinessWeek (businessweek.com/smallbiz).

Some of the stuff isn't really polished, but it is "on the street" information of what is happening right now (the beauty of our online world).

I'm a marketing guy, but I probably get more great ideas from sales people than marketers. They're more in tune with what is happening on the front lines and aren't smothered in academia-mindedness.

Someone once said, "It's not the job of marketing to COME UP WITH all the good ideas. It's their job to RECOGNIZE them."

Posted by DUST!N at February 1, 2006 10:10 AM

Anyone can improve anything they'd like, but unless education is coupled with natural talent, the best we can hope to be is average. When scouting for a sales professional, I look for inherent traits, not pedigree, and have had better success. Likewise, marketing can be taught, but unless there is a natural intuition about what motivates people, the best you'll get is someone who can market by checking off the boxes: Demographic profile? Check. Ad budget? Check. Merchandising? Check? Communication? Check. When all the average pieces are in place, expect average return. On the other hand, if you are ever fortunate enough to work in an environment flush with natural marketers and natural sales people, you can take over the world.

Posted by Curt Craighead at February 1, 2006 10:14 AM

KUDO's!!!!! Aside from my aspiring new intitatives in my next life (not my current position), I reside at one of those institutions. My background is business, sales, marketing, 'the people business'. I do NOT teach. I sell high dollar degree programs to professionals. You hit the nail on the head regarding this denial to want to teach sales. Duh. They ain't sales people, that's why. Hum, now that I think about it. They AIN'T marketers either. Or at least they don't practice what they preeeeeeeeeeeeeeach.

Posted by Craig Davis at February 1, 2006 11:00 AM

Bottom Line: Nothing happens until you sell something. Your biz plan to investors. Your resume to an employer. Your product or service to the customer (and, yes it's listening to the customer, not talking AT them). Convincing your toddler to wear a jacket when it's 20 below outside and you're already late to work. And so on. We're all in the service and sales "business" whether we like it or not.

Marketing is (or should be) tightly integrated with sales, operations, etc. etc. All too often, of course, it's not.

Can sales "be taught?" Well, certainly technique and tools can be - but attitude and aptitude. Nope.

And a quick aside to Arun - while I agree it's difficult to pick up "science" on the job - business ain't all that easy either. I've seen many a scary smart "science" type crash and burn when they tried to do the business/marketing/sales piece. And, a CTO in charge of sales or marketing? (shudder).

Posted by Mary Schmidt at February 1, 2006 12:16 PM

Brilliant Mary - common sense; pragmatism; and simplicity; - all in one post congratulations!!! Love the child/jacket analogy - we have all been there.

It made me think about what I suspect was my most useful ‘on the job’ sales training when I told my teenage sons for the 50th time to tidy their bedroom that weekend a few years back. Actually I never succeeded with that ‘sale’ and gave up! :-)

Ahhhhhh… there really is nothing like the University of Life

Posted by Trevor Gay at February 1, 2006 12:31 PM

Xerox taught sales back in my day but somehow forgot how to do it.

Posted by Bob at February 1, 2006 1:41 PM

I'm a student in a B.School in Vancouver BC, in the Marketing program, and we have an entire course dedicated to Sales:) So its' not completely dead yet!

Posted by Christie at February 1, 2006 1:57 PM

Remember the Monty Python Sketch?
"I'm not dead yet" - "You soon will be" -
"but I'm not"

Posted by Knight who says "ni" at February 1, 2006 3:22 PM

Your comment is right Mr. Peters.

Business schools no more teach the true value of sales.

Will actual and future companies survive?

With best regards

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Posted by Juan Robles at February 1, 2006 3:54 PM

Selling IS Solving

Don't forget their is a difference between general "selling" or "sellers" and "sales professionals"

Nearly any person with capabilities in listening, empathy, enthusiasm, and passion can become a professional selling goods or services that they believe in.

I have no idea why there are not more than a couple of sales programs in higher ed - it would be great to see "PROFESSIONAL SELLING U" formed... how about a virtual school? I'd love to be on that faculty.

Finally.. small housekeeping issue... lots of references to salesmen here.. remember the other 50% of professional sellers.... women!

Posted by Lori Richardson at February 1, 2006 7:13 PM

I do a lot of sales training and was invited to present at a well know college.

The professor had a few non negotiable rules, one of which was that I was not to use the term selling or sales in my presentation. I was to couch everything in marketing terms. He knew my background, but did not want the college to find out that he had a speaker discussing sales.

Additionally regarding some comments above...selling is both an art and a science and you can teach the science part fairly easily. It is the art part that has to be learned through experience and good coaching....

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Posted by Todd Spare at February 1, 2006 9:16 PM

First off - Lori, don't worry. "Salesman" is a pejorative; "salesperson" is at least neutral. If you don't believe me, listen to some commercials. It's always "no salesMAN will call," but "our sales PEOPLE are the best..." :-)

Anyway, I'm one of those with a marketing degree and a sales background who finally got a chance to manage a business. Directly to the question, I agree with those who have hinted that it's not dealt with much in the hallowed halls of academia because too many business professors have never run a business. One of the benefits of going to a podunk state school and mostly going to school at night was adjunct professors who were low on theory and high on experience. Even in the regular faculty, I had a stats professor who had run a furniture factory or two and could explain statistics informed by experience with what really happens when large numbers of objects start flying around. But I digress.

From an academic/training perspective, I think sales has FINALLY emerged from the shadow of a lot of "bad science." Closing sequences, "objection handling" as something that happens in some sort of rhetorical vacuum, and other Jedi mind tricks probably never did work the way they were supposed to, but should have been discarded in the '70s, at least, as people really have gotten more into some sort of post-modern, post-ironic mindset where they really hate being TOLD anything, much less being lectured, "handled," and pushed.

What has slowly taken its place is literature on the market-driven, customer-driven, empathetic approach, i.e. "listen as much as you talk, stupid," and while it probably seems (and is) basic to most readers of this blog, it's probably very useful stuff to a lot of undergrads. Tell a class that these techniques can also help you get dates, and watch the interest increase.

I took a "Sales 101" class in college (from a prof with a sales background), even though I had sales experience already, and found that a) I still learned a lot and b)what the book did was focus not only on communication techniques but the practical matters that surround a job where you are often unsupervised, geographically isolated, and traveling a lot. These, too, are things that are basic to business people but CAN and SHOULD be taught in college. If it sounds too much like trade education, so be it - as someone else pointed out, sales IS the heavy lifting of marketing.

Sales as a career suffers from many stereotypes, but one that perhaps is unconscious and overlooked is kind of chronological. Many associate sales and salesPEOPLE (especially men!) with modes of the past. The door-to-door salesman, for example. Even the in-person cold call in the business environment is becoming a thing of the past. In an age where most people express initial interest via a web site, there is more than enough for salespeople to do in responding to interested leads. And how many of us have ever just failed to act on buying something because someone didn't follow up with us and answer the questions we might not even have quite formulated ourselves?

In other words, because no salesperson called?

Posted by Gary Smith at February 2, 2006 8:04 AM

One problem that I would see with effectively introducing a quality sales program in B Schools is that it would be difficult to bring the subject too far beyond foundation theory. Simply for the fact that specific sales techniques which have proved to be practically effective in one industry are not necessarily effective in another.

Techniques to convert visitors of a software product website into sales are much different than those used by photcopier suppliers. Because of the uniqueness of sales approaches across industry lines - retail, manufacturing, financial services, hospitality, high tech, etc. it would be nearly impossible to provide real guts into a semester or two.

Perhaps, more effective would be to incorporate sales internships as part of the program, perhaps allowing students to align their internship with their area of concentration - learn by doing. It's the best way anyhow!

When I look at the UK Apprentice program - I had to laugh when a supposedly well versed salesmen in one area (a car salesman in this segment) was completely useless when trying to sell art.

Posted by Tom O'Leary at February 2, 2006 9:47 AM

There is still a fundamental problem with sales people - customers hate dealing with them. The problem is for the vendor they produce results.

Isn't there a better way?

Posted by PaulH at February 2, 2006 11:58 AM

PaulH - That's why I suggested an emphasis on advanced communication skills over sales earlier in the discussion! Although, after dealing with various international industries and organizations over the years, perhaps basic communication skills should be introduced as well.

Q: What do you call a salesman at the bottom of the ocean?

A: A good start.

Posted by Tom O'Leary at February 2, 2006 12:09 PM

It's true that many attributes of sales are forms of 'tacit knowledge' and are difficult to teach..but this is equally true of marketing and general management. Therefore, it doesn't answer the question of why biz schools are reluctant to teach those attributes of sales that can be taught.

I think the answer does have a lot to do with issues of perceived social class. It may also have something to do with personalities of many b-school professors, although I would question whether a person can be a great professor if he doesn't have at least some affinity for sales.

Posted by David Foster at February 2, 2006 2:51 PM

Have you thought of doing a book devoted solely to excellence in education? Most of us know how terrible it is.. from K through grad school through job training.

So why not "In Search of Education Excellence"... a survey of those schools & teachers who are doing great things? (at any level).

sale viagra for men Posted by AJ Hoge at February 2, 2006 3:38 PM

I just loved your list especially point 59. Hard work (over here anyway) is a dirty word(sic).

See my turn on your saying:

http://3ca.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/02/work_hard_beats.html

Posted by Stuart Jones at February 3, 2006 1:41 AM

I agree with Tom that sales skills are often industry-specific. However, as with a lot of other subjects, a good business school can at least teach the "common ground".

But then, in his exchange with Paul, they both seem to really diss us! Thanks for proving my point about salesMEN versus SalesPEOPLE. That's why I try to be a salesPERSON. :-)

Posted by Gary at February 7, 2006 10:28 PM

I know - it was a gratuitous shot Gary, and it's unlike me to take such shots. The joke I used was actually one that I heard used for 'lawyers' in the past. I would have modified it for any profession. I'm a salesperson as well, as most of us are if we're dealing with other people in business circles.

Sorry for dissing you! ; )

Posted by Tom O'Leary at February 8, 2006 6:08 AM

I work for an organization that trains salespeople, and I agree with PaulH- Sales has an image problem.

Even seasoned sales people who's incomes depend on learning more about their craft shy away from getting the training they need. They're afraid to admit they want to be better salespeople.

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And why? Most Presidents, CEOs and successful entrepreneurs have one thing in common: they all spent time in the sales department on their way to the top.

Posted by Jordan at February 8, 2006 4:23 PM

Simple economics. Any Sales professional who knows how to sell well enough to teach it is going to make way more money selling than teaching. Thus the entire subject Self-selects itself out of academia.

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