Comments

Not sure where the border has been crossed. I read that specific exchange back then .. and again reading it.

AFAIK, its just a rant and nothing extraordinary is happening.. other then the fact that the automoblie industry is crushin the amercian society into the ashes.. and also helpin the deplepeatation of ozone layer !!

Posted by /pd at July 13, 2006 12:13 PM

Thanks for the .ppt & you are THE expert in that area ...so agree 100%.

However, seems GM is "victim" not only of super terrible management but radical high pensions to pay and "healthcare" costs and big unions and JAPAN INC subsidy and tax advantage [sorry USA GM/Ford] for Toyota-Honda-Nissan-Mitsubishi. Seems most Toyota-Honda success is driven by USA educated top management and/or USA citizens that benefit Toyota-Honda?

Posted by Sean at July 13, 2006 12:14 PM

Line? What line? There wasn't any name calling, profanity, or any other kind of disrespect. You have to respect a person in order to want to change their mind, don't you? This was (is) just two strong-minded, bull-headed, ornery old dudes bashing ideas at each other in the hope that sheer force of will can crush our viewpoint home into the other's skull. Virtual mouths engaged, ears shut off, etc.

I respect Tom's views immensely, but I only agree with him about 50% of the time. That's me, that's him, no big deal. I'm just trying to get him to look at other possibilities with regard to mergers. They aren't 100% two failing companies clinging to each other in a desperate and doomed attempt to stumble accidentally into prosperity. AND--there are a lot of us who are tasked to bring the best of two worlds together when mergers happen and we (OK--I) would rather someone with Tom's influence and impact bring something better to the table than the continuous "mergers = failure" mantra. He doesn't agree, that's fine, life goes on...

Posted by Mike at July 13, 2006 1:11 PM

Great dialogue! This is what blogs should be about... ...a real-time conversation/debate.

Please note that that "MIKE" has posted another comment on the "Gross Negligence" posting -

http://www.tompeters.com/entries.php?note=009029.php

Posted by Michael Warner at July 13, 2006 1:21 PM

What is all the fuss? Great debate. I shared both points with the office. (We are in Detroit.)
It's about time we can talk about more than "if Google is going to save us".

Posted by Arthur at July 13, 2006 1:28 PM

I'm amazed at how easily people can get offended. I've had blog entries where I was complimentary about 90% of the blog and politely mentioned a few things that were not ideal, and these resulted in some very angry people that held grudges for over a year.

Any entry is probably going to make someone mad. The challenging issue is when those people are potential clients. Do you shut up or let it fly? Do you want clients that don't want to hear any dissenting opinions? What fun are those engagements going to be?

BTW - I give every new consultant on our team the Brand You 50 book and track their progress. It is a huge help.

Posted by Dale Peterson at July 13, 2006 1:50 PM

Mike and Tom - when two people always agree in a relationship one is redundant. TP Blog is a relationship for all us regulars and Mike is a regular. Two adultts can agree to differ and still be mates in my book. I used to get hurt very easily when people did not agree with me. Then I grew up.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 13, 2006 1:55 PM

Of course you did not lose it. However, having just returned from an extended business related trip to Brno, Rosario and Beijing it seems to me that maybe more of us should be losing it, because we really do seem to be losing it.

Posted by Kate at July 13, 2006 2:02 PM

"Practical idea? If you are crunched by a mega-merger or outfit run by repeatedly demonstrated incompetents, quit and get a job at a modest size company where you can actually make a difference to yourself and to the consumers you serve."

I did this myself about 18 months ago.Traded down from a $35bil company to a $280 mil company.
What a boost not only to my career but to my mental health and that of my family. I struggled with the decision for about 3 years before finally saying WTF and doing it. I truly feel like I make a difference now.

Posted by dave at July 13, 2006 2:29 PM

Hey Tom,

You said what you see as the truth (which incidentally I completely agree with). I would not give it another thought.

Tom

Posted by Thomas Alexander at July 13, 2006 5:48 PM

Isn't it sad that passion has been driven out of our largest enterprises? It's silly to ask that passion always be "positive" - sometimes it has to be "negative." Detroit obviously hasn't figured "it" out, and so they need a "knock upside the head."

Truth hurts, people. Tom, you spoke the truth. Think of it as a doctor who has to break a bone to re-set it properly - yes, it hurts, but the alternative is unacceptable.

(Personally, I'm still waiting for GM to pull their collective heads out of you-know-where. You think Renault - RENAULT, for cryin' out loud - is gonna make that happen? If so, I have a bridge to sell you!)

Posted by GC at July 13, 2006 8:36 PM

I love heated debate. Congrats Mike on pushing Tom's buttons.

IMHO, this is just the last gasps of the US's remarkably resilient industrial economy...dying. You just can't keep giving away cars (employee pricing and 0% financing) in the hopes that everyone buys a new one every 2 or 3 years. You can't pay a factory worker 70k per year + health care and expect to be competitive. And just wait till next year when the Chinese start importing $8-10,000 cars with Toyota engines. Hell is going to break loose! Not that it hasn't already happenned with fabric, clothing, electronics, etc..

GM could have, should have acted differently by concentrating on innovation, sustainability, AND profitability vs. constantly driving revenue to feed the beast. But is that even possible with the Kerkorians of the world waiting to throw a shareholder lawsuit in the event that the company isn't maximizing shareholder value?

Lastly, a cry for help: My Dad recently retired from Ford after 36 years on the line and I cannot for the life of me convince him to sell off part of his Ford stock (currently about 40% of his nest egg). He says it is at historic lows and is waiting for it to go back up. Grrrrrrr.

Posted by Paul Davidson at July 13, 2006 9:04 PM

Sometimes we find it when we lose it.

It's good to get things stirred up a bit sometimes.

All the best

Tom

Posted by Tom O'Leary at July 14, 2006 5:14 AM

Good robust debate. I agree with Mike, Trevor and Tom O'Leary. Mike said: "There wasn't any name calling, profanity, or any other kind of disrespect." Exactly.

Great comment from Kate too. Frightening. I think that here in the UK we are not doing remotely enough of anything, to prepare for the challenges from China, India, Brazil, Russia. Messages in Tom's slides resonate more every passing month.

Posted by Michael from UK at July 14, 2006 7:09 AM

Mike's final comment seems to be a too common trait of blogging comments. "So, either offer advice on how to make it happen or shut up. Just saying "you're wrong" is an easy cop out." Occasionally, folks offer comments to blogs as if the blogger owes it to the reader to only say what the reader wants to hear/read.

Your blog, Tom, is true to you. If Mike has read any of your books, read/seen your slide shows, or read your blog, he's seen a similar passion on this subject and others.

Readers may not always agree with your position. But as some other commenters have said, we need debate and we need ideas. We live in a society where many increasingly believe that we shouldn't have a strong opinion about anything because it might offend someone. "Can't we all just get along" has gone too far in many areas.

You didn't cross the line. The truth can hurt.

Posted by David Jacobs at July 14, 2006 7:33 AM

Passion is vitally important, and as other commenters observed, it's all too often driven out in the name of propriety, professionalism or other nonsense.

Kudo's for a lively debate!

Posted by Dan Ward at July 14, 2006 7:36 AM

Paul, good luck with your Dad. I'm tough on GM's Wagoner, but young Billy Ford does not exactly excite me either--understatement. (Where the hell is Henry I or Henry II when we need them! I guess two in a row is the best you can expect in a bloodline. Alas when I see Billy in an ad my immediate reaction is, "I think I'll make my next car a Honda."))

Posted by tom peters at July 14, 2006 8:29 AM

why would you ever have someone run you business
who is dumb enough to buy a SUV?

Posted by pete stafford at July 14, 2006 9:11 AM

Wow, I'm glad I swung by. I almost missed this.

Firstly, I'd like to reiterate Paul's comments. Congrats Mike on pushing Tom's buttons. Congrats Tom for engaging him. As far as I'm concerned, who cares who's right and who's wrong. The important thing is the debate.

I'd like to pick up on Michael's point about the UK not doing nearly enough...etc. That may be true at some levels, but I've travelled extensively and visited dozens of companies in China, India and the UK. What I've been lucky to witness is small to medium sized Brit companies meeting the challenge head on by ignoring what they can't change/fight and getting on with what they can do better than anyone else.

These are the guys who have left the big (but not always), moribund organisations and done what TP advises: "If you are crunched by a mega-merger or outfit run by repeatedly demonstrated incompetents, quit and get a job at a modest size company where you can actually make a difference to yourself and to the consumers you serve."

It's the only way, Mike. I speak from hard-earned experience.

Posted by Matt Bailey at July 14, 2006 10:47 AM

Hello everybody I live in Sweden.
I am reading "Re-imagine" and I get a wow-experience each time I turn a page in this great book. From now and on I will look at things in a different way.
You are absolutely right about big mergers Tom; they seldom work and it is not the answer to company problems. And "quality and improvement work" such as "six sigma" is a thing of the past. Instead people need to focus on what really matters; good service to your clients and customers. That is where the money is made and not from "six sigma projects".

Posted by Marcus Andersson at July 14, 2006 11:09 AM

The real problem with GM and Ford is not about mergers, it is about their BRANDS.

All they need is rearranging, restructuring and throwing some of the unwanted and redundant BRANDS.

For more details see my post on "Refactoring GM and Ford"
http://www.henryjacob.com/2006/07/refactoring_gm_.html

Posted by Henry Jacob at July 14, 2006 11:31 AM

Tom, I think you and Mike both did well, as others have said. What I really like about your writing is not what you say (as others have said, I agree with you sometimes and disagree with you other times) but the fact that you routinely make me think. You state things clearly and simply enough (simplistically even, sometimes) to force me to examine my own thoughts and biases.

That said, asking this question, as you have here, lets us see that you're human. I assume we've all wondered similar thoughts after we've done something. So, thanks for reminding us that we can reflect on our actions publicly, too, as you have here.

Finally, I agree with you now; I wonder if I'll agree if / when Toyota becomes the bigger company. Karl Albrecht recently posted a pointer on a mailing list to a CNN article that seems related to what you two are writing about; http://facilitatedsystems.com/weblog/2006/07/growth-and-winds-of-change.html gives my brief introduction and a link to the article.

Posted by Bill Harris at July 14, 2006 12:31 PM

Tom, You were passionate but polite. I don't understand folks who waste their lives grinding it out at a huge company, whining and complaining about how tough and terrible it is. Sooner or later you've got to realize what a dead end it is. You simply told him to take responsibility for his life. You were dead on correct.

Posted by AJ Hoge at July 14, 2006 1:04 PM

Healthy exchange. Good points.

I actually think Tom gave the gift of an unfiltered viewpoint and believe his advice was spot on.

"You see, we are the ones who have to find the 'synergies' and try to mold two cultures into one—with a profit at the end of the day. So, either offer advice on how to make it happen or shut up. Just saying "you're wrong" is an easy cop out."

Mike - I've heard this before. Most of us have - maybe not the same exact words but some variant thereof. I've uttered it similarly in a number of difficult situations and still do in the right circumstance. It can also be expressed as making the best of a bad situation. Those of us that are good soldiers with excellent attitudes use it all the time...

Yet I personally find it used too often as a way of getting compliance with an idea that simply can't stand on it's own merit. Trying to find and meld "synergies" (aka undefined value) tells me that people don't have a plan and are simply "trying to make the best of a bad situation." I know you are not the person that intiated the merger Mike but I fear you may have fallen prey to that which so many of us do - working solely based upon loyalty and our inbred work ethic. Both are admirable traits but also require an additional element - they must be focused in the right direction.

If it doesn't make sense and one really wants to build and create the best company/product/service they are capable of then they must fight against the tendancy that it is always necessary to hold hands and sing koom by yah. Harmonizing is the logical and natural byproduct of most manmade and natural efforts yet one doesn't reach harmony without some discord. To that end one must not sacrifice truth (or at least what they believe it to be) for the sake of harmony - not if they seek excellence.

Big mergers do not build better companies. Melding two or more underperforming companies together is simply piecing together the corporate version of Frankenstein. There is seldom value generated - unless of course you happen to be an an investment house brokering the deal or an executive with stock options. After the lightning strikes the carcass they are typically the only ones who gain. Meanwhile the new Frankenstein company lumbers about the countryside scaring the populace.

In a way, I think Tom paid you a compliment in that his comments assumed you were both passionate about your career and about wanting to make a difference. His directness was both a testament to his sincerity and sign of respect for your ability to appreciate it. In the end, I think he really was offering advice on how to make it happen...

Posted by Walter White at July 14, 2006 1:43 PM

Agree with the majority here, Tom. I think most of us access the site because we are stimulated by your willingness to tell it as you see it. As adults we have the option to agree or disagree.
Trevor's comment "I used to get hurt very easily when people did not agree with me. Then I grew up." would make a great slide! I really identify with this so much . It's taken me nearly twenty years to stop being so ****ing polite to everyone and to really give a true 'from the heart' opinion, and I feel so much better for it, and am much more use to colleagues and my organisation as a result.

Posted by tomjam at July 14, 2006 2:49 PM

Interesting take on GM management and the new "alliance" from academia world at http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1522

Posted by Manny at July 14, 2006 2:49 PM

Interesting take on GM management and the new "alliance" from academia world at http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1522

Posted by Manny at July 14, 2006 2:49 PM

Since when does an argument, difference of opinion, or disagreement constitute losing it? We're too politically correct today as it is. Too worried about hurt feelings, talking in round about verbiage and refraining from telling people when we disagree with them. Sometimes conflict produces better solutions. Sometimes it produces a more interesting blog, too.

Posted by Randy at July 14, 2006 3:20 PM

Tomjam thanks - nice to know I am not alone my friend :)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 14, 2006 4:42 PM

Here's my problem with your solution.
Sometimes people can't quit.
Mike is looking for advice on how to fix the problems GM has.
I'm sure if he could quit (or wanted to quit) he would.
Your advice is a bit like saying the solution for global warming it to go to another planet.
Not all problems can be solved by leaving. It's not always possible. (And I'm sure you will say it always is - because you want to give him a solution)
If you don't have an solution for his actual predictment (which is how does he help fix GM)
then just say so.

Posted by pete stafford at July 14, 2006 5:29 PM

Yes, but Tom, I think you may have missed the most critical line of Mike's exchange:

"... offer advice on how to make it happen ..."

This is something I'm always faintly amazed you don't do. Someone of your calibre and experience could offer a fascinating - the most fascinating ever, in fact - post on initiatives someone like GM could take TODAY to mix things up and turn itself around NOW.

It's fair to criticise big company mergers (I disagree with you most of the time but whatever, that's what knowledge progression is about, disagreeing) - but it's also fair to say I think that if you want live up to the criticism you dish out you should offer an engaging, practicable set of steps to turn this company around. Then you can say in one year's time: Okay, so they did exactly the opposite ... and look what's happened!

Tom, my suggestion therefore is this (to put an end to the emotion): offer a post with "Change Initiatives".

Real genius would be finding how to initiate small microcosmic businesses inside this goliath and use them as many entrepreneurial devices for innovation rather than just saying "they're slow" because they operate as a bureaucratic elephant.

Posted by Daniel M. Harrison at July 15, 2006 7:27 AM

Yes, but Tom, I think you may have missed the most critical line of Mike's exchange:

"... offer advice on how to make it happen ..."

This is something I'm always faintly amazed you don't do. Someone of your calibre and experience could offer a fascinating - the most fascinating ever, in fact - post on initiatives someone like GM could take TODAY to mix things up and turn itself around NOW.

It's fair to criticise big company mergers (I disagree with you most of the time but whatever, that's what knowledge progression is about, disagreeing) - but it's also fair to say I think that if you want live up to the criticism you dish out you should offer an engaging, practicable set of steps to turn this company around. Then you can say in one year's time: Okay, so they did exactly the opposite ... and look what's happened!

Tom, my suggestion therefore is this (to put an end to the emotion): offer a post with "Change Initiatives".

Real genius would be finding how to initiate small microcosmic businesses inside this goliath and use them as many entrepreneurial devices for innovation rather than just saying "they're slow" because it operates as a bureaucratic elephant.

Posted by Daniel M. Harrison at July 15, 2006 7:27 AM

Interesting how what seem like clear and obvious exchanges are interpreted so many ways. Says a lot about communication, I guess. Well, I don't work for GM and don't have a stake in their well-being. I'm also not working for a bunch of incompetents--quite the opposite. I love my work and my company and have no reason to leave. My only point was that when a thought-leader of Tom Peters' caliber can only stand back and say "that's wrong" over and over on a subject, it's time he should leave it alone or maybe come up with some ways to change the process so it does work. Mergers are here to stay and many of us are in the business, at least part-time, of making them work. Rather than being told our efforts are futile, we could use some help from those whose opinions we respect.

It may be difficult to achieve success in large-scale mergers and acquisition environments, but not impossible. I think of all the acquisitions made by GE during Welch's tenure. Also GE's divestitures of company's GE felt were not leading the market--someone bought them. And how about Berkshire-Hathaway? Acquiring companies is the reason for their existence. Not all mergers are Time-Warner / AOL or Sears / K-Mart.

And it's just too easy to stand on the outside and say (or quote) pithy sayings like "...buy two large companies and wait." I expect more, though I have no right to do so. (Yes, I have ideas how to make the process work, based on my experiences, and will probably put them forth in the future.)

Posted by Mike at July 15, 2006 9:04 AM

Personally "Trevor" is the one who "Loses It" most often - agree with tne new Daniel & Mike "Solution Man" thread :>} ...

Posted by sean at July 15, 2006 11:30 AM cheapest price for viagra

Love it Tom.

GM needed a strong visionary leader like Lou Gersner or Jack Welsch. Needed them about twenty years ago. Too little too late iam afraid. the games up. The only ones to beneift from a merger will be CEOs and board in some kind of "share options deal" and lawyers and accontants. Every one else better pray.

Posted by Jon at July 15, 2006 1:22 PM

Hey Sean, leave Trevor alone!You may think he "loses it." I just think that maybe he looks at the issues a bit more deeply than some of us! Maybe you could just accept that not everyone thinks the same way as you do instead of insulting a fellow contributor. It contributes zero to the discussion.

Posted by tomjam at July 15, 2006 2:04 PM

Tomjam - as I said earlier I used to get upset but then I grew up. Keeping my head while other around are losing theirs etc ....Sean is only joking ... I think :-) Actually I think Sean is secretly the founder member of my fan club in the States. Is that right Sean? :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 15, 2006 2:20 PM

Tom,

I love it when people deliver the truth, no holds barred. Mergers and acquisitions won't solve the essential problem of these American car companies not being able to interest consumers in their products.

Posted by Jason Dolenga at July 15, 2006 2:55 PM

This is the USA, free competition, get an idea and do your thing. If GM can't get going on its own why put some more monkeys on its back. Big is very rarely flexible, adaptable and innovative. Not to mention the huge internal costs which they have been trying to shed for years. Pensions and health care, HUGE numbers. Some people internal and external may still be drinking the Kool aid but that doesn't mean it is reality. Get on with it or get out. As the old saying goes, rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic ain't going to change the outcome. Nobody at GM seems to carry around a list of lessons learned because they don't seem to learn.
As someone said recently, "Stand for something" Right on Tom.
Steve C

Posted by Steve Clayback at July 16, 2006 7:26 AM

Maybe, Trevor - should have [so the tomjams GET IT] put the smiley face right after "Trevor" - yes always sense of humor 1st with me :>} - and to those of us as long time users/abusers of this TP site: "Loses It" is highest praise indeed, n'est pas?

Blender music magazine just had "25 Music Wusses" of all time - "Sweet Baby James" Taylor #1 - Cat Stevens up there too losing his girl to Mick Jagger - precisely because they DIDN'T "LOSE IT" often enough - too predictable = bottom of the food chain and/or extinct baby.

Posted by sean at July 16, 2006 11:03 AM

Sean and Trevor-glad to know we're all buddies after all-you'll have to just forgive me for being new/naive. Good to know I can start liberally insulting you both on a regular basis {insert smiley face}and it won't be taken to heart.

Posted by tomjam at July 16, 2006 1:04 PM

Oh boy...now this is a topic! First, let me explain that I have seen GM from the inside and from the outside. As a baby boomer, many of the folks I worked with as we were making our way up the ladder in that old traditional corporate model, are now running the place. I have seen great talent at GM. Skip LeFauve comes to mind. Jerry Hirshberg is another. And Tom, we can't forget Pat Carrigan. And let us not be too quick to blame the union. Some pretty good leaders there over the years, Leonard Woodcock, Doug Fraser, Irv Bluestone. And in a much too oversimplified statement, even with all these smart people, they created their own problem. My goodness, while I was there Toyota handed over the entire Toyota Production System model as part of the NUUMI project. They can never say they didn't know. What they can say is that they never had the courage or the stomach to do the hard stuff. Sure they cherry picked shop floor management, jit, spc, standardized work...etc. I remember Dr Deming telling us at a managment meeting that the head of Toyota wasn't afraid to share their "secrets" with us because we couldn't even see what we needed to see and besides "GM management will never do it."

Rick Wagoner is another example of finance whiz kid elevated to CEO. I like his personality better, but I can't help but think this is Roger Smith repackaged with a bit more tact. I am a huge supportere of being a responsible steward for the business when it comes to managing costs, but it aint the whole enchilada. As a matter of fact lean and operational excellence are part of their problem. Can you really reduce design to numbers? Well, sure you can, it is called market share. But you can't reduce it to numbers short term. Jerry Hirshberg left Buick and went and started a cool little organization called Nissan Design Institute...and introduced the Infiniti line, the Altima, and his last car, the 350 Z. Read Jerry's account of design at GM in his book "Creative Priority". You'll understand GM much better. I have always wondered whether it was a coincidence that Jerry left Nissan (he was retirement age) about the same time Ghosn showed up. Once in awhile GM has deviated from the accountant running the car company story. Bob Stempel was a car guy. Bob didn't have a chance trying to clean up for Roger Smiths mess in a tough economy. What is Bob doing today?? Oh, just running his new company producing hydrogen fuel cells.

Look, I feel bad for my friends and colleagues at GM. But I don't feel sorry for them. They forgot design, they forgot the customer, they forgot R&D, they forgot they are a car company. Their demise was clearly a choice. Not a symptom of our economy, but a choice made in the boardroom at GM. I for one, don't think Ghosn will matter at GM. He's a cost cutter. Wagoner does that pretty well. It's the last gasp of a drowning company.

My one hope is that they will be a case study for all those organizations hoping to become as big as GM. The big just crash harder.

Posted by Mike Neiss at July 16, 2006 5:16 PM

No problem Tomjam - Insults are fine as long as you put a smiley! Thanks for the feedback Sean and I am impressed with your French!

I don't have to come on to TP blog to be insulted - I can stay here in England and have it done by experts in real time :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 16, 2006 5:22 PM

I'm just back from 2 weeks vacation and I've missed one of the best debates for a while! My take is that Tom's original post was opinionated and so was Mike's comment; there was no rudeness about it; there was a little tetchiness but we're all human; and a bunch of ideas and opinions got bandied around as people engaged in the debate. This is A Very Good Thing That Should Be Encouraged. Well done to all.

My take on the proposed merger: I get really sceptical about deals that are done without a clear idea at the outset of where the synergies or the benefits are coming from. It seems like pure guesswork and leaves it to luck if you work on the basis of, "Well if we each spend $x on R&D or HR or Marketing then we could pool and reduce the spend by $(make up a number and insert it here)." Mike talks about Big Company guys who then try to have to make it work, and quite rightly. I've been in acquired and acquiring companies and seen first hand how a whole bunch of cost saving projects get proposed: then the power politics come into play as the sensible ones are dropped because it was someone senior's pet project and the dumb ones get done because the senior guy whose remit it used to be has been sacked and no-one's left to defend it and the business has got to do something because they promised Wall Street.

If it was my business, I'd look at the legal and fee costs of the merger + the operating costs, the disruption and the loss of focus it'll inevitably generate in the short term. Then I'd be more inclined to hire some designers and engineers and focus on making better cars.

Posted by MarkJF at July 17, 2006 7:31 AM

Interesting article found at @Knowledge Wharton.
"Does a GM-Nissan-Renault Alliance Make Sense? Skepticism Abounds, but Let's Hear What Carlos Ghosn Has to Say"
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1522

Posted by Bruce S at July 17, 2006 1:30 PM

TP site as more "Solution Man" thread - vote YES and/or NO - and ultrabrief WHY?

Posted by sean at July 17, 2006 1:58 PM

I see no "line" crossed, but I wonder what's the fuss over GM. They're a dinasour destined to become extinct (in their current form). GM needs to reivent to stay alive in a world that has changed.

Maybe the exchanges with you and Mike will, in a small way, be a catalyst.

Posted by Eric Pennington at July 17, 2006 6:41 PM

Same here Trevor, I used to get hurt very easily when people did not agree with me. Then I grew up. As I recall it was quiet painful but well worth it.

Posted by Craig Jones at July 18, 2006 5:19 AM

Hi Craig – thanks for that - There’s something interesting about all this don’t you think? I KNOW I am a sensitive person and I still get upset - maybe too easily. But as I get older I am getting better at dealing with it. I remember my exchange 4 or 5 years ago years ago with a Senior Director during a Public Board meeting. It went something like this;

Director: ‘You seem to be taking that criticism personally Trevor’

My reply in the PUBLIC meeting (the local press reporter was present!): ‘That’s because to me it’s personal’

Probably did my career prospects no good at all but made me feel better. I still find it hard that we males have to be seen to put on ‘a brave face’ in order to be credible in business. I don’t accept that and never will. There is nothing wrong with showing your emotion - even men! Robin Wolaner’s book (Naked in the Boardroom) has arrived and she makes some fabulous points about all this. I am enjoying the book immensely so far. Don’t misunderstand - I am not saying we should break down in floods of tears at the slightest criticism but it is far easier to encourage people than to criticise. As I get older, the sicker it seems to me that there are those people – you know them – who seem ONLY capable of giving negative feedback. Those very people in fact are the one’s who would break down in floods of tears if they are criticised. I used to feel angry with them – now I just feel sorry for them.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 18, 2006 8:02 AM

Some DO NOT feel emote as forte though. Sad - anger - disgust - fear - surprise - joy = 6 prime emotions. Only joy is positive - surprise in neutral = therefore most "emotion" is primal negative baggage - get over it "Trevor" or whatever your real name is ... just kidding :>} ... boy do we need a snarkie YASTROW post or what!?

AND THANK HEAVEN FOR ISRAEL and ability to kill Islam-fascism where it lives.

Posted by sean at July 18, 2006 8:20 AM

Here is some humour Sean :-) P.s. we are enjoying unheard of hot weather in England (35 degress today)- I am the only saddo working methinks :-)

Anyway while we await for some good meaty argument ...enjoy this,....compliments of Basil Fawlty.....

John Cleese letter to America

To the citizens of the United States of America, in light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II resumes monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.8% of you who have, until now, been unaware there's a world outside your borders) will appoint a Minister for America. Congress and the Senate are disbanded. A questionnaire circulated next year will determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid your transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. Look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Check "aluminium" in the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you pronounce it. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'favour' and 'neighbour'. Likewise you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary." Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed." There will be no more 'bleeps' in the Jerry Springer show. If you're not old enough to cope with bad language then you should not have chat shows.

2. There is no such thing as "U.S. English." We'll let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter 'u'.

3. You should learn to distinguish English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). Scottish dramas such as 'Taggart' will no longer be broadcast with subtitles.You must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is "Devon." If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become "shires" e.g. Texasshire Floridashire, Louisianashire.

4. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1.

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5. You should stop playing American "football." There's only one kind of football. What you call American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.1% of you aware there is a world outside your borders may have noticed no one else plays "American" football. You should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). You should stop playing baseball. It's not reasonable to host an event called the 'World Series' for a game which is not played outside of America. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls' game called "rounders," which is baseball without fancy team stripe, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

6. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns, or anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because you are not sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you need a permit to carry a vegetable peeler.

7. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday. It will be called "Indecisive Day."

8. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left. At the same time, you will go metric without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

9. Learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren't French, they're Belgian though 97.8% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Potato chips are properly called "crisps." Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat.

10. The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as "beer." Substances once known as "American Beer" will henceforth be referred to as "Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine," except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called "Weak Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine." This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

11. The UK will harmonise petrol prices (or "Gasoline," as you will be permitted to keep calling it) for those of the former USA, adopting UK petrol prices (roughly $12/US gallon, get used to it).

12. Learn to resolve personal issues without guns, lawyers or therapists. That you need many lawyers and therapists shows you're not adult enough to be independent. If you're not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, you're not grown up enough to handle a gun.

13. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.

14. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

Thank you for your co-operation.

• John Cleese [Basil Fawlty, Fawlty Towers, Torquay, Devon, England]

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 18, 2006 8:26 AM

A UK takeover - perfect! USA as UKville - UKlite - UKperfection - it is proper that we worship and adore all things UK! [And UK takes USA defense/debt load]

AND RECORD HEAT - this from USA Today [soon to be UK Today] http://asp.usatoday.com/weather/weatherfront.aspx

Posted by sean at July 18, 2006 8:58 AM

Do you realise Sean it's only you and me left :-)..

And I am about to go to a meeting - I will leave you in charge ...

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 18, 2006 9:03 AM

Trevor-agree 100% about the "putting a brave face on" Susie Orbach would call it "emotional illiteracy" I think. Men are still expected to suppress emotion. Don't get me wrong, working with someone who shows every emotion, all the time is a drag. My boss gets angry about once a year, and it is all the more effective because it's so rare.This applies also to Tom and his exchange with Mike. It's great because it's occasional, and therefore, means something.And please don't leave Sean in charge-he keeps "losing it"!! Love the Basil Fawlty-magnificent.

Posted by tomjam at July 18, 2006 3:42 PM

Tomjam - you and me are Sean's mentors!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 18, 2006 4:21 PM

Yes we are, God help him!!

Posted by tomjam at July 18, 2006 4:26 PM

oh my-- what a wonderfull tapesty of thoughts happening here.. thank gawd I am curious !!

I wish blogsphere had "bread crumbs" to help me find my way back to whereever I have troll :)-

this goes back to a TIB, "Tell the unvarnihsed truth - ALWAYS" !!

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Posted by /pd at July 18, 2006 6:26 PM

Mike Neiss: Brilliant. And THANK YOU for gracing this debate with some "on the ground" (gawd, I hate that term ... how about "from the field")observations!

Posted by tom peters at July 19, 2006 8:23 AM

Only Trevor would attach the full Fawlty script for the zillionth time - adding complexity and communism [all the money to the front line drivel] to a world craving simplicity - and now an adopted lapdog like timjam yapping at his heels beck and call :>}.

Trevor = not happy until massive lawsuits reign down like Israeli missles on the TP site :>} ... the life of a pseudo social engineer ... gone Fawlty ...

Posted by sean at July 19, 2006 8:49 AM

Amen Sean :-)

It is just too hot - we are not used to this in England

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 19, 2006 8:57 AM

Thanks Sean, I guess only an "adopted lapdog" would come on to a site like this and be such a wuss as to AGREE with someone. Now don't forget to take your pills and have a wonderful day!

Posted by tomjam at July 19, 2006 9:18 AM