Comments

John,
At the risk of dating myself, I'd like to say that reading this post is like a walk down memory lane. I wonder how many of our readers remember those times? Or are you introducing a new group to some great old music? Either way, well done, and thanks. That link to Folk Den goes to a blog of song lyrics. It's great!

I don't know if it's true that today's artists aren't aware of the total picture, though. Think Gwen Stefani. She makes more news for what she wears than she does for her music.

And, I want to be the first one to say this: Incense, John? Right.

Posted by cathy mosca at August 2, 2006 9:28 AM

The reason it worked for the Byrds is because there was some talent and substance behind the rest of the marketing. Gwen Stefani? Who's that? Who's going to know or care about her catalog ten or twenty years from now? Nobody.

See the difference?

Posted by Mike at August 2, 2006 12:11 PM

McGuinn is actually podcasting the Folk Den and I have been subscribed for a while... it is pretty good!

Posted by James Hathaway at August 2, 2006 12:54 PM

Got to admit not a Byrds fan ... but as for brand identity 'The Eagles' have no equals. Having seen The Eagles recently on their Farewell 1 Tour in Birmingham I have to say what an absolute joy it is to see real musicians playing real intruments and perfect harmonies. Pure talent without the need for electronic enhancement! ..

Like Cathy .... a trip down memory lane is created by John's post .. thank you :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 2, 2006 12:55 PM

DRUGS - SEX - ROCK 'N ROLL. The "brands" we blog of in those days - 'dimensions and design' John - agree as key parts. And Trevor with the Eagles, please relent - just kidding - they are free enterprise magicians.

Today "entertainers" even with average brands are wealthy - notice how that has changed since the '60's?

Posted by sean at August 2, 2006 1:07 PM

And of course, you should go listen to The Byrds' own "So You Wanna Be A Rock n' Roll Star" for the some wise words on this subject... Sure, The Byrds' branding was good but that's just style and on it's own would not suffice (listen to any number of bands with plenty of "attitude" and nothing to say); what made The Byrds truly great was the content, i.e. truly great, groundbreaking music.

English readers (especially Trevor): McGuin is in the UK in October. Go see... I'll be at the Milton Keynes show.

Posted by MarkJF at August 2, 2006 1:55 PM

Trevor, I'm beginning to get the impression you're fond of the Eagles? Yes, they were/are talented folks: solid writers & singers, and Walsh is a guitar god. They also took country rock - which McGuin & the Byrds inaugurated - to a new level. But to put a finer point on this brand thing: if you saw a picture of the Byrds in their heyday or picked up an early album jacket, you instantly recognized their LOOK. (Not convinced that was true of the Eagles.) Everything about the Byrds' image and brand hinted at something mysterious, spacey, trippy - and cooler than cool. The Eagles probably had as much pure talent, but the Byrds were uniquely DISTINCT, on many levels. And yes, MarkJF, the look alone only gets you so far. But the Byrds had exceptional songs, McGuinn's unique vocal style & guitar sound, and Crosby's intricate harmonies. When you can put it ALL together, that's a formula for success.

Posted by John OLeary at August 2, 2006 2:18 PM

I bow to your greater knowledge John about the Byrds - whatever gave you the impression I lke the Eagles? :-)

Take a look at 14th June posting at this link:

http://simplicitygallery.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_simplicitygallery_archive.html

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 2, 2006 2:32 PM

McGuinn & Byrds were major pioneers. Their Sweetheart of the Rodeo album was a radical change that exposed their rock audience to country music. At that point you could say they switched brands. Something lost, something gained. Not sure what that says about branding.

Posted by Jan at August 2, 2006 5:39 PM

I agree that Byrds are a great example of branding - everyone know who they are, what type of thing to expect, etc - but not really a great band. As I believe David Crosby himself said, "The Byrds were great everywhere except on stage." They are/were conceptually more interesting than they were in reality.

I enjoy McGuinn and it's great that he's still doing it (with his new 7 string guitar) but the Byrds are a hype.

Posted by Tom Maloney at August 2, 2006 7:25 PM

The Byrds were very 'conceptually interesting' - and I remember they were very popular with the artsy crowd as well as the young girls. But you might be selling em short, Tom. I spose the early Byrds were better in the studio than live but that was true about most bands of the period. Turn, Turn, Turn was one of the great classic rock oldies as was Mister Tambourine Man. Both were 'groundbreaking'. So was 8 Miles high. And David Crosby always had an axe to grind against the lads after he was kicked out.

Posted by PaleoRocker at August 2, 2006 10:17 PM

Not to mention the other great bands and music that was spawned when the original members of the Byrds drifted away from the nest.

Posted by Erick Blackwelder at August 2, 2006 11:28 PM

Maybe what we saw from McGuinn was also leadership and vision: he worked with a revolving cast of musicians who helped change and develop the band's music and ultimately he had the courage to say it had run its course and wind it up. David Crosby is one obvious example of the help he had but Gene Clark was a superb singer and songwriter (listen to his "No Other" album); Clarence White was a great guitarist; and of course Gram Parsons really helped the country element. It's sad how many of them are no longer with us.

Posted by Mark JF at August 3, 2006 3:01 AM

Maybe the brand is really "Roger McGuinn" ?

Posted by Tom Maloney at August 3, 2006 7:25 AM

Anybody who inspired Tom Petty deserves credit!

And yes, The Eagles are magnificent. But Chris Rea rules, despite his mediocre brand image!

Posted by Dave at August 3, 2006 7:27 AM

Hey if you are talking branding and music then you have to be talking Heavy Metal (actually shouting rather than talking!!)

The brand loyalty of HM fans is deep and long lasting (decades). I am talking active involvement not just a nostalgic replaying of old records. HM marketing has been very sharp in identifying specific market niches and really homing in on them, creating a sense belonging and difference that sets fans apart. The genre is very good at taking feelings of disaffection and isolation (from peer groups and society) and turning it into brand loyalty using the image and the lyrics to reinforce this.

Posted by PaulH at August 3, 2006 8:32 AM

Tom - interesting point, but then is Apple really Steve Jobs or maybe Bill Gates is Microsoft or Warren Buffet is Berkshire Hathaway? As much as each has been pivotal in their band's success, I'm sure they'd disagree and apportion credit amongst their colleagues.

Posted by Mark JF at August 3, 2006 8:36 AM

As someone who has thought about (many times) and tried to (once) launch a "band brand", I have turned this question over in detail (I recall many hours spent/lost over the "name" decision alone).

Two points on this one:

1) If you were a "brand" band in the 60s, and you stayed together into the 70s, you probably ended up messing with the formula that earned you success in the first place. The late 60s/early 70s were a time for that kind of experimentation.

2) Prior to the late 60s, record companies, not bands, dictated the "brand". Commercial success only translated into more self-direction for bands that came of age in the late 60s and after. Some--the Beatles, Stevie Wonder, Pink Floyd, Steely Dan--took over the controls and made something great. Others--the Eagles, Yes, Led Zeppelin (you will quibble with this)--devolved.

Good topic choice, John. Interestingly, there is the contrary view, held by one well-known musician in particular, that music and commerce are entirely incompatible!

Posted by Greg Wass at August 3, 2006 8:47 AM

John:

Great topic. I saw Roger open up for the Grateful Dead in the 90's. He and the Byrds are awesome. Funny you should write about the Byrds and how they marketed themselves. I have been a lifelong music fan and have always paid close attention to how bands market themselves--everything from album design, to appearance, etc. Madonna,of course, is an expert at marketing and re-inventing herself.

Posted by Tim at August 3, 2006 10:42 AM

You made think of the Mamas and the Pappas Creeque Alley--"McGuinn and McGuire couldn't get no higher, but that's what they were aiming at." Ahh, the good old days.

Posted by Patrick Lamb at August 3, 2006 11:18 AM

Fun discussion. Nice to know there are such knowledgable rock historians who read these blogs. Obviously, I’m a Byrds zealot - saw them in Boston in ‘66, at the Newport Pop festival (Costa Mesa, CA) in ‘68, and got to sit in with them briefly at a recording session in Hollywood ’73 or ‘74. It didn’t bother me that they were better on record. Yes, I’d agree that every band was in those days - except the Who. (I’m still amazed that any band in that era could sing reasonably on key when performing live, given the inadequacy of stage monitors then.) And yes, Roger had lots of help from the rest of the group. I’m a huge fan of Mike Clarke as a drummer - who, you’d be anxious to learn, passed away the same day as Dr. William Deming. (Where else would you get these facts?)

If you like McGuinn and the Byrds, his intimate coffeehouse concerts are a must-see. In between songs he tells great tales of his tours with Dylan, Tom Petty, and others, gives a little Byrds’ history, and discourses on some of the unusual instruments he plays (all featured on stage). His once-a-month blog is cool too: http://rogermcguinn.blogspot.com/

Interesting point of view about music and commerce being entirely incompatible. That was by far the majority opinion in the 60s when I was scuffling around in bands. Now that seems to have flipped – at least with the solo artists. Some of them have studied “the business of music” in college and know about marketing and branding themselves – even if their music doesn’t hold up. The rock bands – with some exceptions - still seem to be purists about just sticking to the music. OK, back to work…

Posted by John OLeary at August 3, 2006 1:48 PM

I recently wrote an article for a small trade publication entitled "So You Want to Be a Marketing Star"

I started with the opening lyrics from the Byrds So You Want to Be a Rock & Roll Star.

Yes I am old enough to have seen them in 1964 in Indianapolis. Their legacy continues today.

Posted by Bill Yeadon at August 3, 2006 7:13 PM

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A great run of comments. Seems like there was a post a month or so back (wasn't it also Rock related?)that drew days of ongoing comment. Good to know that, in spite of the business brains, there are lots of rock and roll hearts still alive in our midst.

I tend to see music and business ("commerce" in John's terms) being in conflict. Big business--the Clear Channel's et al--control the airwaves and control the big venues. If you're not mainstream or not deemed to be packagable (brandable?) as such, you've got a steep hill to climb. I DO agree that new musicians are studying the business side of the industry. Not because they want to, but to figure out how to identify and maximize the slivers of opportunity remaining for them.

To the original post, brands are a collection of "experiences:" visual, auditory, print, spoken, lovemark....some consistent element(s) over time. I'm not sure about the Bryds being a brand. The only consistency was probably Roger's voice and 12 string. Are Dylan or Bowie "brands?" Vocal consistencies there for each, I suppose, but the only other thing consistent is their 40 years of constant reinvention. Makes me question whether the brand is the package or the contents.

Posted by Ed Di Gangi at August 4, 2006 6:28 AM

While McGuinn was clearly the creative leader of the band, it's hard to give him credit for the branding. True, his Rickenbacker technique gave the band its signature sound. However, on the business side, credit for creating the image of the band must go to Jim Dickson. Dickson, the Byrds initial producer and manager is credited for the concept of fusing "Dylan folk and Beatle energy". It was Dickson that pushed for "Tamborine Man" to be the Byrds first demo.

Posted by Jimi at August 4, 2006 7:57 AM

While McGuinn was clearly the creative leader of the band, it's hard to give him credit for the branding. True, his Rickenbacker technique gave the band its signature sound. However, on the business side, credit for creating the image of the band must go to Jim Dickson. Dickson, the Byrds initial producer and manager is credited for the concept of fusing "Dylan folk and Beatle energy". It was Dickson that pushed for "Tamborine Man" to be the Byrds first demo.

Posted by Jimi at August 4, 2006 7:57 AM

If you take the Byrds on one side of the family tree and put the Yardbirds on the other you could trace the development of R&R throughout the remainder of the 60's and 70's.

Posted by Bill Yeadon at August 4, 2006 10:42 AM

I agree Ed - lots of comment on the old music posts! – Maybe we should have more of the same! - Business has a sense of fun too after all maybe????

PS The Eagles Rule - Henley is untouchable :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 4, 2006 6:41 PM cheap viagra in uk

Trevor, I fondly remember hanging out at the Troubadour Coffeehouse in West Hollywood around 1970-71 and seeing John David Souther and Glen Frey perform under the name “Longbranch Pennywhistle” at the Monday “hoot nights” (basically open mike’s). Around that time Jackson Browne was playing the free hoots too. I also heard Glen and some other country rockers backing up Linda Rondstadt there. The next thing I knew the back-up band had recorded an album under the name “The Eagles” – which nobody at the time took seriously. Who knew? But all these wonderful and talented characters owed a major debt to the Byrds, who helped build the LA folk and country rock scene to begin with.

Posted by John OLeary at August 4, 2006 11:40 PM

If music and business are in inevitable conflict, why has such high quality, intelligent rock music been conceived in the evirons of Hollywood - a symbol to many of business greed and "plastic" art at its worst? Some of the classic greats who hung there - the Byrds, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, Joni Mitchell, Jackson Browne, Linda Ronstadt, the Eagles, the later Fleetwood Mac, Warren Zevon and more. There's a paradox for ya.

Posted by Jan at August 5, 2006 10:43 AM

As a punctuation point to this thread...I caught McGuinn at his best in Great Barrington, Massachusetts last night. He mixed traditional folk nuggets with Byrds’ favorites (“Mr. Tambourine Man,” “All I Really Want to Do,” “I’ll Probably Feel a Whole Lot Better,” “Turn, Turn, Turn,” “8 Miles High,” “So You Want to be a Rock & Roll Star,” “My Back Pages,” “Mr. Spaceman,” “Chestnut Mare,” and my favorite of the evening, “Chimes of Freedom.”) He put on a guitar clinic, alternating between Rickenbacker electric 12-string, acoustic Martin 12 string, acoustic Martin 7 string (the G string in octaves), and 5 string banjo. Goin' strong at 64.

Posted by John OLeary at August 6, 2006 11:18 AM

Thank you John - I appreciate the education - you are very well read - more so than me as is obvious!

I had read JD Souther was very much part of the early days with Glen Frey but I was completely unaware of the influence of the Byrds. Great stuff - thanks again. Seeing The Eagles a couple of months ago in the Farewell 1 Tour was wonderful - their harmonies and instrumentals are still magical.

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 7, 2006 4:54 AM

Trevor--I saw Glen Frey at a local venue recently and he billed it as a stop on his "Prelude to Obscurity Tour." He was pretty funny and self-efacing throughout--he said anyone who takes themselves too seriously is usually cured by having teenaged children.

Posted by Mike at August 8, 2006 4:38 PM

Great stuff Mike - at Birmingham on the Farwell 1 Tour Glen Frey said 'We are calling this Farwell 1 Tour because we may do some more tours – but at least we are up front and honest rather than doing a Farwell Tour and then doing another a few years later like some artists.’

He also said The Eagles may one day become the first band to do a 'Resurrection Tour' - A real funny man and I love the fact he doesn't take himself too seriously.

Joe Walsh is also hilarious and wonderfully eccentric.

Don Henley and Timothy Schmidt are idiosyncratic in different ways.

Schmidt still seems genuinely overwhelmed by the adulation and comes across as a really grounded guy.

Henley is wonderful – my favorite – he is blunt, honest and ‘in your face’ – ‘if the cap fits’ as we say here in England – great exchange – thanks Mike :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 10, 2006 5:23 AM

Trevor, as a final note, despite my proseletyzying for the LA-based Byrds, and your lobbying for the LA-based Eagles, would we agree that the rock bands from your end of the pond have been been superior, on the whole, from the ones in the States? I'm especially fond of the ones with Gaelic roots - e,g, the Beatles, U2!

Posted by John OLeary at August 11, 2006 1:11 PM

Hi John - that is a great final note - you will not find me disagreeing. We Brits may not be the best in the world at much but as regards rock bands we have no equals methinks :-)

The Kinks are my favourite band - probably the most under-estimated band in history.

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 11, 2006 3:55 PM

Trevor, I'm a big Kinks fan as well. Ray Davies has been through town several times on his own and I've been meaning to catch him. "Lola" has to be one of the top 25 great rock/pop records of all time - and of course their early classics speak for themselves. They had a major influence on the early Who - my favorite LIVE band. (I just got their "The Kids Are Alright" DVD which should be included in the next space capsule - it would scare away any potential intergalactic invaders.) The Kinks would be on my short list for most underestimated band, along with the Lovin Spoonful and the Buffalo Springfield - oops, I'm undermining my initial point. Thanks for the discourse, as this thread fades into oblivion...

Posted by John O'Leary at August 12, 2006 10:25 AM

Hi John - the thread will disappear soon but nostalgia is great isn’t it? ….. The first record I bought with my own money as a teenager around 1967 was Waterloo Sunset by the Kinks – do you remember that one? As regards live bands I was lucky enough to see a contempory band of the Beatles from Liverpool called 'The Swinging Blue Jeans' who never got the credit they deserved. I remember reading a review when I was in my teens that the SBJ were a far better ‘live’ band than The Beatles – that is some testimony. Their best known song was ‘Hippy Hippy Shake.’ They were terrific ‘live’ and sadly they disappeared like our discussion will I fear quite soon …

Maybe we should ask TP group to launch another thread on sixties music – it always gets lots of comments – what do you think?

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 12, 2006 5:53 PM