Comments

Viva le difference - testosterone lives on.

Two of the Seattle Seahawks "SeaGals" cheer leaders in brother-in-law's law school classes. Smart & attractive: sure USA success - have it, flaunt it, use it or lose it ... sue if harrassed though.

Posted by sean at August 28, 2006 11:54 AM

My son is a senior at Virginia Tech. I bet this subject has never been taught, mentioned or probably even addressed.(I hope I am wrong) My daughter is a sophomore at the same school and after she graduates I feel sure she will be dealing with this for her entire career.

Posted by Bruce D at August 28, 2006 12:17 PM

So glad to read this post, in a misery loves company sort of way.

Bruce D. is probably right. I've been traveling for the better part of my 30 years in the workforce and often find myself wondering why the behavior just doesn't change regardless of language or culture. Global testosterone; perfect.

Posted by Kate at August 28, 2006 1:45 PM

Implications?? – My question is - Who are the role models for our kids?

I am not the only man who finds this sort of thing distasteful, pathetic, dangerous and arrogant. It is appalling that men act this way in 2006. I’m sure ALL fathers who contribute to this Blog would be ashamed to think their sons might be doing this sort of thing. I would and that is not being prudish. No argument – it is just not acceptable behaviour.

PS ...Next time I promise not to pull my punches.

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 28, 2006 2:21 PM

I think attitudes like Sean's are part of the problem...boys will be boys and all that other malarkey.

There seems to be a certain kind of man who simply refuses to respect women and see them as equals.

Posted by GraceAnn at August 28, 2006 3:04 PM

My Poppy alwasy told me that the in life there are two ruls to follow -wrt to women.

1) Everything that you do is to ensure that a woman's life is easier and happier.
2) There are no further rules.

I think there is a difference between being a "man" and a "gentleman". The choice is left upto the man !!

Trevor makes a good point - "who are the role models" - can I say my father was one ?? :)-

Posted by /pd at August 28, 2006 5:13 PM

Of course, every case (and woman) is different. And, sure, back in the day of mondo travel and tons of meetings, I was "hit on" fairly frequently. But, I usually managed to head it off at the pass with the a friendly, yet professional "one of the boys" style (No, I don't scratch, burp and talk football - I do recognize the "early warning signs"of male hormonal surges.)

Also, from a purely pragmatic point - I think it helped that as I got older I tended to be the boos and/or senior person in the bar, car or meeting room.

Posted by Mary Schmidt at August 28, 2006 7:33 PM

Forget travel.
How about getting hit on at the home office?
Doesn't matter what we look like or how we dress, it happens.

I treat it like a psychological tactic to throw me off my game.
I try not to let it bother me
and if it does, I NEVER let it show.

Posted by Kimber at August 28, 2006 10:46 PM

The "boys will be boys" attitude isn't particularly beneficial to men in the long run either-- for it more or less says that all men are adolescent emotional retards.

While that certainly seems to be a large category the world over (including this blog)- its one that many men DON'T identify with.

Posted by AJ Hoge at August 28, 2006 11:51 PM

Hi AJ - hope you are well - long time no see :-) You make a great point. Behind the statement 'boys will be boys' is a sort of implicit acceptance that this type of behaviour is justified ... and it just ISN'T. I hope Tom keeps rattling the cage on this - maybe those men who seem to think it makes them look is some sad way 'impressive' will eventually hear what Tom is saying. This is not some sort of evangelical mission it is just professional ethics and proper behaviour.

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 29, 2006 2:56 AM

Sad, but true! Despite the move for gender equality, esp. in business or workplace, you're right: "Life for women, including professional life for powerful women, is a far cry from life for men."

Posted by Meikah Delid at August 29, 2006 4:45 AM

http://www.huhcorp.com/index.htm

Posted by fullymubbed at August 29, 2006 6:02 AM

AJ, I hope to god you are wrong. "Boys will be boys" is 180 degrees from my attitude--though I am certain that men and women do have fundamental differences. "Hitting on", other than at singles bars and the like, is lousy practice. "Hitting on" at work is out. Especially, as in the Armed Services with dire consequences, when it's a boss relative to a subordinate. I don't care how good a boss' camraderie is with the "troops;" he (or she!) is the formal power figure and there is an asymetrical power distribution issue which is insurmountable.

Posted by tom peters at August 29, 2006 8:23 AM

It cuts both ways though - there are plenty of WOMEN WHO TAKE ADVANTAGE of their attractiveness to manipulate business to their benefit. Naturally, one realizes that there are plenty of male-bashing men out there - this website A PRIME focus place. ONE anecdotal TP anti-male rant via 1 source - credible?

"Life for women, including professional life for powerful women, is a far cry from life for men." That TP statement seems to assume that WOMEN are operating with DIMINISHED CAPACITY to manage themselves, and their business life - I'd suggest otherwise [except for GraceAnn though perhaps].

Anyone French/Swedish reading this blog would find it HILARIOUS - some USA and EU types who ARE still not in touch with their SENSUALITY & sexuality - and what that means in business life ... c'est la vie :>]. The USA Today real story is about those who connect for hours of very private fun on the road.

Posted by sean at August 29, 2006 8:28 AM

Yes, we Americans do tend to obsess about sex, don't we? And, I personally get a wee bit tired of the victim speak of some women. One confused (and very nice, respectful) man once said to me, "I'd love to compliment you, but I don't know where the line is anymore." Of course, blatant sexual comments and overtures should always be verboten in the work place. But, men can (and do) get into trouble for saying things like, "That dress is beautiful!" Me? I like compliments and I do give "the boys" a little room for error.

Yes, life is different for women than men - you try standing on the balls of your feet for four hours of presentation! (those heels are killers) ;-)

Posted by Mary Schmidt at August 29, 2006 9:24 AM

I liked the post, but am not surprised at the responses. I have found, too frequently of late that some of the greatest defenders of equality for women, are men. I appreciate it from the men, as much as I'm disappointed in the women to buy into the easy way out for the guys.

For instance, I am always disappointed when I see women defend men and such actions. All it takes, they say, is to be assertive. No, all it takes is to be respected.

As for the silly talk of 'but men are now afraid of making a compliment', there are common sense rules and not knowing these is pure malarkey and a way of trying to wave one's hand to gain attention from the importance of the point TP is trying to make.

But for those who can't figure this out on their own: Any compliment should be one that a person could make equally to a man, as to a woman. Any compliment should also be one that one could hear equally from men and women.

Can a man compliment a dress? Sure, but then a woman can also compliment a man on a shirt or a tie. A woman can also compliment another woman on shoes or dress, and a guy tell another what a great t-shirt or hat.

Can a guy open a door for a woman? Sure, but I open doors for men and women, when I'm there first and they're right behind me. It's less cumbersome than trying to keep it open behind me, and my mother taught me you don't slam the door in people's faces.

If the behavior can't transcend the gender, even with the best of intentions, then it's not appropriate behavior in a professional environment.

Posted by Shelley at August 29, 2006 9:39 AM

I agree with Mary Schmidt.
I am not American, and found it a bit difficult when I came here that you can't compliment women at work.
I found out that I had a remark in the Human Resources file - "I had been too nice to a woman".
It left me sad and unsure - could I smile at a woman, or would that be considered "too nice"?
I lived in Sweden and Brazil before coming here, so I was not used to this very strange rule of conduct.
Don't get me wrong. I don't for a second endorse hitting on women.

Posted by Alexej at August 29, 2006 10:43 AM

"All it takes, they say, is to be assertive. No, all it takes is to be respected.

As for the silly talk of 'but men are now afraid of making a compliment', there are common sense rules and not knowing these is pure malarkey and a way of trying to wave one's hand to gain attention from the importance of the point TP is trying to make."

If this was in response to my post - I never said that all it takes is to be assertive. But, respect isn't automatic - regardless of gender, age or sex. Sadly, many men don't respect each other, much less women.

Trust me, I know what it's like to be disrespected, patronized and harassed by men. But, none of us can force people to act appropriately or to respect us. What we can control is how we act and respond (which is where the "assertive" comes in.)

Further as for the "silly talk" - well, there are some silly women out there that take offense at even "gender appropriate" compliments. So, I stand by my silly comment - which seems to be supported by Alexej's post above.

Done waving my hand now! Back to the real world.

Posted by Mary Schmidt at August 29, 2006 2:56 PM

Mary - hope things are going well in the beautiful sunny Duke city. I've been in the US federal government 30 years - and here the pendulum is MORE like women use SH filings to advance career at times ... and to make threats.

Sterile environment indeed! Never meet with a woman alone kind of a deal - AND never see them outside the career-place.

how to get viagra sydney The REALITY SH show for me of most interest was having a boss of bi-sexual tendency hitting on me - that was a fun one AND telling his supervisor was a BIZARRE experience! Luckily the bi boy retired soon after.

Posted by sean at August 30, 2006 8:45 AM

Thanks, Sean! We've not "talked" in ages.

Your comment re the bi-sexual boss makes me wonder, what's the gay community's perspective on all this? Do gay men have the same "harassment" issues - given it's still within a male power structure.

Posted by Mary Schmidt at August 30, 2006 11:37 AM

Mary - interesting question! At Defined Fitness there were/are quite a few gay men at times - AND like many men - they are aggressive!

Have read that gay men average 90+ partners from 15-50 years old - rampant STD's no surprise - AND point well taken - SH may be a constant issue!

Have read that male models are discriminated AGAINST if they are not gay - same in other Fashion Industry endeavors.

Posted by sean at August 30, 2006 12:11 PM

The pendulum swings (excuse the expression) both ways. In my industry I've seen women become as aggressive and promiscuous(sp?) as men - not an area of equality they should be proud of. And I especially notice it among female college grads. They got, they flaunt it and they don't mind using it to get what they want. There was just an article on one of the news shows about summer interns dressing to get noticed. I'm the curmudgeon in our office - I send them home to change. But then I still think we're here to work, where others seem to think we're here to play. Does that attitude contribute to our mediocre performance? I think so.

Posted by Doc at August 30, 2006 3:04 PM

I'm not sure anecdotal reports of gay mens' average number of sex partners (or STD rates, for that matter) have anything to do with sexual harassment, but I think same-sex harassment might be a bit more difficult to address, owing to the greater stigma attached to reporting this type of harassment--or talking about any gay-related issue at all, for that matter. For example, I was recently in a diversity workshop where a high-level marketing manager was struck speechless and reduced to embarrassed giggles when asked for her perception of the work environment for gay employees.

Oh, and according to friend who used to be a male model, most male models--like most men in general--are straight.

Posted by Tom at August 30, 2006 3:48 PM

I'm throwing another one out there. Is it really about sex and the age-old mating game? Or, is it about really about power? Personally, as a woman, being "hit on" isn't the biggest problem (remember, I'm speaking for myself and my experiences, not all women) - it's the culture/thought process/power structure that enables the "hitting" in nasty and inappropriate ways. Further, a lot of people meet their future sponses/life partners at work - after all, that's where they spend the majority of their time. So, sex in the workplace, while a bit dicey, isn't necessarily evil (or a "male versus female battle.) overnight united states viagra

Posted by Mary Schmidt at August 30, 2006 4:05 PM

Mary, I think SH is about power. At it's core, it's a form of bullying.

Posted by GraceAnn at August 31, 2006 7:53 AM

Agree SH is a power trip mainly. The age old mating game is there to.

Am acquainted with a married business owner who was sneaking it with an office "lady". Anyway, he ended up getting shot by the "ladies" newest married [off duty deputy sheriff cadet] boy ... & state law dictated a SH settlement to the "lady" that was greater than settlement to the ex-wife - extra bad luck!

Posted by sean at August 31, 2006 8:31 AM

Gender arrogance is one of the many reasons an organization of any size should focus on doing what it takes to become the best of the best in their industry, company, etc.

The best of the best don't allow "boys will be boys" excuses to be a part of their culture. They make a point to treat all employees with respect, dignity, and understanding. They have a system for effective communication that will not allow this type of behavior.

Posted by Dave Sovde at August 31, 2006 11:24 AM

Gender arrogance is one of the many reasons an organization of any size should focus on doing what it takes to become the best of the best in their industry, company, etc.

The best of the best don't allow "boys will be boys" excuses to be a part of their culture. They make a point to treat all employees with respect, dignity, and understanding. They have a system for effective communication that will not allow this type of behavior.

Posted by Dave Sovde at August 31, 2006 11:24 AM