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"Terry Sylvester (fellow musician at the Cavern Club)" .....and playing guitar in The Hollies after Graham Nash left to join David Crosby and Stephen Stills in Crosby Stills & Nash. CS&N was a remarkable band at the time, and still is.

Posted by Roy D at March 22, 2007 1:38 PM

Hi John, Agree! The Beatles'relentless innovative spirit is also mentioned in an article by Greg Clydesdale, who researched the success of The Beatles. He singles out two crucial factors behind their success: 1) their continuous improvement focus, 2) their innovation through competition attitude. I wrote a bit more about it in this post: http://tinyurl.com/25jquz
Kind regards, Coert, http://solutionfocusedchange.blogspot.com/

Posted by Coert Visser at March 22, 2007 1:43 PM

John - innovate or die - many people say it but few know what to do to innovate... What should Dell do right now to innovate? What can YOU (or TP) tell us all about the "age old" challenge you and I face of needing to do different things or doing things differently? I would like to know what YOU advocate and what you would have me do or tell people they should do... What did Tom tell his gathering about what, why, when, and how to innovate? Did your music industry friend tell you how many other groups (other than the Beatles) he also thought were outstandingly talented? I can add one positive comment for those reading this about innovation and how to actually do it - Dell has a site on Second Life (no one seems to go there yet but at least Dell is trying to find out more about what this virtual world is all about) and Dell is also looking at the use of Linux software (ie letting people beyond the company join them in the innovation game)... Dell is joining all the rest of us who are struggling to answer the real world question here - "what do I have to do right now to innovate in ways that will ensure I do not die!"

Richard

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at March 22, 2007 4:48 PM

Richard, there is, as you know, no prescription for how to innovate (and more importantly for how to profitably innovate). But for starters I look for (and encourage in others, whether they be individuals, teams, or companies) a COMMITMENT to innovate — to take risks, to challenge convention, to break the mold. (To me ground zero is the commitment, the stand.) That may seem like an “of course,” yet so many organizations DON’T start there. It’s just not a priority to them — as evidenced by the stupefying conformity of commercial goods and services, and of corporate life itself. There’s no contempt for the similar. (The Beatles—a wonderful example of a creative work team or small entrepreneurial organization—DID start there. They had zero tolerance for the same ol’ same ol’. The Beatles’ look and sound reflected that from their very early years, with their experiments in hairstyle and fashion in Hamburg and their dazzlingly innovative songwriting efforts.)

But it’s a legitimate question to ask “What then?” That’s why Tom says, “We become whom we hang out with.” So it’s important to surround yourself with “strange” people. Find people with “diverse groups of tools.” Hire the whack jobs. “Hang out with freaks.” (From the start the Beatles hung with an arts crowd in Liverpool and in Hamburg, as well as with other creative musicians. They were a magnet for "freaks.") Then keep doing things and trying things and screwing things up. “Fail fast.” (The Beatles would record the same song dozens of different ways until they found a version that sounded original. They recorded "I Will" 61 times.) But in the end there's no formula.

Posted by John O'Leary at March 22, 2007 10:32 PM

Roy: yes, Terry Sylvester replaced Graham Nash in the Hollies and sang the high harmonies on their classics. He started in the Escorts, then the Swinging Blue Jeans ("Hippy Hippy Shake"), then the Hollies. He still performs, God bless him, though not with the Hollies. Coert: thanks, I'll look up that article. The Beatles did their share of continuous improvement but they also did discontinous change (as in "breakthrough"). Some of their albums (Revolver, Sgt Pepper) fit the latter category and some individual songs too ("Strawberry Fields," "A Day in the Life"). I'm writing about their innovation and competition as well - including the friendly but serious rivalry between the Beatles and Beach Boys. The debate among some critics as to the greatest pop album of all time - Sgt Pepper's vs. Pet Sounds - is a fun one.

Posted by John O'Leary at March 22, 2007 10:53 PM

John - Thanks for your reply but in the end most people are not the Beatles... Most people do not hang with people like the Beatles... The irony is that John, Paul, George, and eventually Ringo were a group formed by talented kids who grew up as ordinary people in an extraordinary sub-culture at a very particular time in history...

One thing I found was very ordinary about the "fab" four (incidentally I am a rusted on fan) is that they were a very very ordinary band to listen to live - I could not believe how ordinary until I heard them live... Luckily for me the girls all around me were screaming so loud that it almost drowned them out... I had a great time but not because the Beatles were great... I can understand that a talent scout might not have been too impressed with them or have wanted to picked them up and back them after hearing them live (John and Paul tended to screach George was the real glue on stage while Ringo was all teeth - as a group they were often out of tune)....

In the end there are a lot of ordinary people around the world who are doing extraordinary things - these people innovate everyday... They get excited about what they do and they get excited about who they "hang with" but they will never become famous, get rich, or get to tell exotic stories about their experiences... I know three of them who I want to mention here - not that they will ever read this or that I will ever tell them about it... But I want to mention them because they are innovators who have the magic, talent, and extra something that makes them special... Kerry, Mick and Ramsis... They do not have a "formula" but they certainly do have "a recipe for innovation" and more power to them... Guess what John - they are also good to hear "live" which is just as well because they do not have screaming groupies around them ....

Richard

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at March 23, 2007 2:34 AM

John - Nailing my colours to the mast I was a ‘Beatle mad’ teenager in the 60’s. I saw The Swinging Blue Jeans live in concert at their peak and I always remember reading they were regarded in the business as a much better live act than the Beatles. Richard is spot on – the world is changed by ordinary people not extra-ordinary people. Margaret Mead got it right about a small group of committed individuals can change the world – indeed that is all that ever has. Yes of course we all look back with rose tinted glasses and we might imagine the ‘fab four’ were ‘special’ but in reality they were lucky to be spotted and managed very effectively by Brian Epstein - a guru ahead of his time - who saw the commercial opportunity. Lennon is my hero of the fab four but in fact I always rated the Kinks higher than the Beatles. Don’t get me wrong I ABSOLUTELY LOVED being around in my formative years in England in the 1960’s – it was magical - but I don’t buy this concept of weirdos and freaks – I think that is just trying to be smart, fashionable and creating some sort of ‘sexiness’. Like Richard said the reality is we are not all surrounded by weirdos – most of us are pretty normal well adjusted folks and proud of it. There are far more people who are NOT ‘weirdos’ or ‘freaks’ who make a much bigger impact on our world. I would not describe Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa. Billy Graham or Mahatma Gandhi as ‘freaks or weirdos’ but that fab four have had far more impact on the world than anyone in business or pop music - let’s get real.

Posted by Trevor Gay at March 23, 2007 5:30 AM

Richard / John: I'm going to sound sacreligous on this site but in my neck of the woods, incrementalism is more important than outright break-the-mould, bet-the-ranch innovation. I work in Logistics and, frankly, there are only so many ways you can unload a container from Japan, warehouse it, despatch customer orders and deliver them. Don't get me wrong, from time to time we do re-engineer the operations but for most of the time it's a case of figuring out how we need to tweak things, usually in small or modest ways, to make ourselves more efficient and keep abreast of what customers want. Now, I could dress this up as innovation and radicalism (which would frighten some people) and I do make sure we celebrate these small projects. But that's what most of them are. Of course, as a business we need to be innovative with our products and to think about the overall service we offer our customers. But the basic commitment I'm looking for from the logistics team is a commitment to constant improvement.

BTW, the debate between "Sgt. Pepper" and "Pet Sounds" is academic: the answer is a dead heat between "Rubber Soul" and "Revolver."

Posted by Mark JF at March 23, 2007 5:52 AM

Mark JF--I think the first person to develop and implement the "milk run" or cross-dock was an innovator. Now, if you set up milk runs in order to minimize transportation time and costs, you are improving incrementally, but you could not do that if someone had not had that innovative idea to begin with. So, I think there are opportunities for innovation in whatever field we are involved with.

Sgt. Pepper, Pet Sounds, Rubber Soul, Revolver? Nope. As any true child of the 70s will explain, it is Led Zeppelin IV.

Posted by Mike at March 23, 2007 6:51 AM

Come on guys – you have to be joking - no contest - 'Hotel California' The Eagles :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at March 23, 2007 7:18 AM

I was a teenager just starting my career in aero engine design and had the chance to organise gigs for the locals... hire the Locarno ballroom and invite 750 of your friends... and yes the Beatles got famous and cancelled so we had another Mersey sound instead. We constantly had to think of themes for the gigs.. the most bizarre being a centennial of the laying, by Queen Victoria,of the foundation stone of the local hospital... unexpected benefits... hundreds of nurses bought tickets.. important when you are a teenager.
I've written several posts about innovation, Cirque and the Beatles here: http://snipurl.com/1dorp
I think if we have really good teams that are supported by leaders innovation can flourish; without that rich mix of cognitive diversity and the protection of the team as we speak out (and maybe say something silly) then we close down and slot-fill. My first memory of an artist I discovered was Bob Dylan.. now he is an artist who polarises opinion... but his recent radio DJ work broadcast in UK shows he is still re-inventing his world of work!
PS pic of Tom amd myself here: http://snipurl.com/1dotf

Posted by Jim Rait at March 23, 2007 8:57 AM

I was lucky enough to attend the same event that John did and see Tom speak in CT. One of the slides that I thought particularly relevant to this topic simply said "Normal" = "0 for 800". The story behind it was that Tom was presenting to a group of elementary school principals. He was discussing their history books, and speculated that there were probably two individuals mentioned per page in a roughly 400 page book. Out of the 800 people we learn about, none of them were normal. If they were, they wouldn't be written about!
So Trevor, when you say "I would not describe Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa. Billy Graham or Mahatma Gandhi as ‘freaks or weirdos’," I disagree. "Freaks or weirdos" does not need to necessarily carry a negative association. Mother Theresa's incredible compassion for others was "weird;" the abnormality of it making the rest of the world notice. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was certainly a freak. I would say that it took a "freakish" amount of courage to stand for what he did in the face of such powerful, abject opposition.
It is difficult to pinpoint the freaks and weirdo around us. However, you consider that the guy with the typical haircut and average workclothes might not think in the same absolutes as yourself, even if you wear the same brand of shoes. He can be the freak that you need to sit with at lunch to expose yourself to a different perspective. You never know, he could end up one of the 800.

Posted by Nick Adams at March 23, 2007 10:34 AM

Hi Nick – actually I think we are agreeing.

I certainly DON’T see ‘freaks and weirdos’ in any negative way.

Some of my best friends and professional colleagues are ‘freaks and weirdos’ and they are wonderful, warm, creative people who really make change happen.

My point is that MILLIONS of ordinary people who are not considered ‘weirdos or freaks’ possess equal talents. I used the four icons - who I adore by the way - as examples of that. They are not ‘weirdos or freaks’ in any way - they are/were just caring human beings people with a passion.

My point is you don’t have to be ‘weird or freakish’ to make a difference. I think the language of 'weirdos and freaks' is just that – fashionable but hollow words.

Yours sincerely
Trevor
Proud to be Weird and Freakish :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at March 23, 2007 10:49 AM

Richard, the best days of the Beatles as a live act were pre Beatle Mania - as John Lennon was quick to admit. One reason they grew disenchanted with live performances was they couldn't hear themselves sing - or even play - much of the time (given the high decibel screaming), so I'm not suprised they were out of tune and off-key. I love the energy of their earliest recordings - often done in one take, so ALMOST live: "Please, Mr. Postman," "Twist and Shout," etc. - which holds up 44 years later as great rock & roll. I'd die to go back in a time machine and hear them perform those songs in the Casbah (with Pete Best, no less). Jim, you are one prolific blogger. Who was the Mersey act that you got to replace the Beatles?

Posted by John O'Leary at March 23, 2007 11:31 AM

Led Zeppelin and The Beach Boys both have merit and were amongst the first groups added to my record collection but, the first was The Beatles. Face it, they have always had a larger mass appeal even though all these groups were very innovative. I talk a lot about inspiration and creativity on my blog. As was mentioned, many know they need to innovate but do not do it. My desire is to see weird creatives (innovation pushers) and straight-laced execs (strategic funders) move beyond information, to inspiration that ends in application.

My 2 cents... -Eric
weirdblog.wordpress.com

Posted by Eric at March 23, 2007 2:18 PM

Mark - in the 1990's I had a client who made Cables... Big and small... It faced closure... It was going to die - not exist anymore... I had the joy to work with a client team who broke-the-mould, bet-the-company, invented (five new world wide patents established) and innovated new ways of doing things... They changed their industry because that is the goal I set them when I took up the simple challenge to win the first of a new type of tender - a 5 year mega tender...

Together we changed the industry it is still talked about in the Cable business - after a management buy-out the company still exists and is growing while facing global competition from Italians, Koreans, French, etc. Here is the rub - one element of our tender challenge was LOGISTICS, mind you it was a huge element of our task, because we had a 5% cost disadvantage over our greatest competitor due to location, location, location...

Simply put we had to truck product across the equivalent of half of Europe from our factory to our strategic distribution points and then we had to get it out to the site... We INNOVATED the LOGISTICS within the business "till the cows came home"... Working 14 hour days - seven days a week - just to innovate was our mantra...

We also invented new logicatical methodologies - I had a competent ex military logistics expert - incidentally he did his advanced training in Britain - but it was not him in particular who did the innovating - it was a group of ordinary Cable Makers who wanted to pay their mortgages, raise their kids, etc... They did not grow up wanting to be Cable Makers but they knew that if they did not innovate at that time they would not put bread on the table....

This remarkable group of people did not want to innovate they wanted to come to work and contribute to the company making profits and being successful - but in the clutch situation they found themselves with they re-invented and innovated everything they could lay their hands on.. Innovations included "cut to length cable" first time in the industry, "delivery to site on a 24 hour clock" first time in the industry, "a strategic coordinator permanently stationed in the client company to coordinate logistic on a daily basis" a first, "instant billing", etc etc...

Trust me the Cable Making business is NOT a fashionable place to be as an adviser on innovation BUT it is one of the best experiences I have had in my professional life - I am so proud of that mob and what they achieved... They achieved what they did because they took responsibility for their situation, they put their heads up and took a look around the world to see what was happening in other industries, they took a big leap of faith as they applied their past experiences (eg time spent at war in Vietnam working on logistics etc)... Most of all they believed in themselves - not books, not their leaders, not motivation talks from me, not visions, not their brand (which by the way was good before this and great afterwards) not strategies (although I had heaps of strategic ideas to share with them), etc - they ultimately believed in themselves and in their power to make a difference in the world of Cable Making...

Turns out you do not have to hang with the Beatles or the Eagles or the Beach Boys to be an innovator...

Finally "continuous improvement" to me is just "business as usual" and if my client had simply continued to do that they would have folded just like their main competitor folded after we changed their industry - we blindsided them!!! They never saw us coming.... So they never knew what, why, when, where, how to innovate to stay alive in the new world of work that we had created for them and for ourselves...

Stay well and have fun Mark...

Richard

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at March 23, 2007 5:17 PM

Mark & Richard, another perspective: I don't think it's an either/or with continuous improvement and breakthough. An organization can do both: while some can look for ways to incrementally improve product design, trim schedules, cut costs, others can look for radically new products, practices, and even business models. (The Beatles were incrementally improving their songwriting and recording between 1963 and 1965, then POW! they released "Yesterday" with a stunningly minimalist arrangement -- string quartet + guitar, period! -- and a BRILLIANT chord progression from outer space -- F-Em7-A7. A few months later they released a groundbreaking album, Rubber Soul, with new production effects and unusual instrumental accompaniment, an album that had its own identity -- not just a collection of singles -- a paradigm shift in pop music in 1965.)

Mark, you could probably make a case for any one of the 3 best Beatles albums -- Rubber Soul, Revolver, or Sgt Pepper -- winning the prize. The first two, IMHO, had the best material while Pepper had the most brilliant production. It appears that most critics have voted either Revolver or Pepper to be the greatest rock album of all time. The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds scores right up there too, along with Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited. (Trevor, no disrespect meant to the Kinks or Eagles, who also deserve membership in the rock pantheon!)

Posted by John O'Leary at March 23, 2007 6:04 PM

OK, guys, just to break this up, can we find some contemporary artists to use as examples of 'challenging convention' or 'breaking the mold'? How about the Dixie Chicks? They thumbed their noses at Nashville convention and shattered the stereotype of the blindly patriotic country artist. They were rejected by the country radio stations and by many of their original fans, but they creatively reinvented themselves as a sassy country ROCK band, with a new audience (and a Grammy).

Posted by terri at March 23, 2007 10:06 PM

Hi John,
You wrote: "I'm writing about their innovation and competition as well - including the friendly but serious rivalry between the Beatles and Beach Boys. The debate among some critics as to the greatest pop album of all time - Sgt Pepper's vs. Pet Sounds - is a fun one."

Yes, I have heard about that. Where/when could I read what you'll write about that?
Coert

Posted by Coert Visser at March 24, 2007 8:21 AM

Terri, the Chicks definitely took on the country music establishment. Time will tell whether their gambit - one of the riskiest I've seen in the music biz in 40 years - turns out to be a profitable one. Saw them in Boston last summer. TREMENDOUS musicians. Coert, my book probably won't get out before 08 given my travel schedule, but I can send you an excerpt (through your address on your blog). Now that I think about it, I might vote "Today" as the Beach Boys' finest album - based on the quality of material, but it's a tough call. In my opinion, Brian Wilson is the only pop/rock composer who can outdo McCartney at jawdroppingly creative key changes WITHIN a verse. I'm still amazed at the creative explosion of great songwriting between, say, 1964 and 1967, when Wilson, Lennon-McCartney, Dylan, and others (Paul Simon, Jimmy Webb, numerous Motown writers, etc.) were in top form, in OBVIOUS competition with each other! It speaks volumes about the role of competition in innovation, as you've pointed out.

Posted by John O'Leary at March 24, 2007 3:57 PM

50 years young at next birthday and no Beatles CD's in the collection! Plently of other stuff, including some that was influenced by The Beatles, but none by the Fab Four as they just don't do it for me. Yes, I've seen Nirvana, Queen and quite a few more, but no one band or artiste form the soundtrack to my life.

I guess the nearest would be Oasis, but that's largely down to the fact that I was a student when What's The Story, Morning Glory came out and it was never off the stereo in the offices of the student newspaper that I worked on back in 1995.

Posted by Keith Rickaby at March 25, 2007 12:13 PM

Ok John, Thanks in advance for the excerpt

Posted by Coert Visser at March 25, 2007 4:09 PM

Hi John ....I completely agree with your innovate or die / be different theme. I have worked on Wall Street for the past 12 years and every single time I won a piece of business it was simply because I was different. I either showed them something they had never seen before or simply put sometimes they thought I was just different from everyone else. That message is definitely what keeps most companies ahead of their pack! best regards, Linda

Posted by Linda at March 26, 2007 7:32 PM

btw, I loved Gerry and the Pacemakers. Their 'Ferry Cross the Mersey' is still one of my absolute favorite songs. I get a thrill whenever I hear it. So beautifully evocative.

Posted by Rick at March 27, 2007 8:01 PM

John, I cannot wait for you to finish this book!

On another note I have an idea to help discover innovation: CHILL OUT! It seems like everyone is so busy obsessing over innovation that true innovation becomes impossible! Maybe it's my wide-eyed youth talking, but honestly, sit back, relax, and remember a time when life wasn't so complicated. If you can't do that, go spend the day with some children. You are pretty much guaranteed to find inspiration where imagination and discovery are so hard at work. If not, perhaps you should give up!

Posted by rachel gaddy at March 28, 2007 2:18 PM

Rick: my favorite of theirs was "Don't Let the Sun Catch You Crying." Gerry definitely had one of the more unique and evocative voices of that rock/pop era. He could even make a sappy song -- e.g. "How Do You Do It?" -- believable! And he's still kicking, after a triple bypass surgery no less. (Maybe he can go back on the road as Gerry & His Pacemaker. Badda-bing.)

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Posted by John O'Leary at March 30, 2007 9:26 PM