Comments

Another VietNam book...uhg! Can't we move on? It's like rehashing WWII...please!

Posted by Joe at February 29, 2008 9:43 AM

Joe, I have to disagree with you.

Lying leads to disaster.

This needs to be proclaimed as often as possible with as many examples from as wide a variety of experiences as possible.

As we become more successful we have more opportunities to give tacit approval to those reporting to us to lie to us and, even more dangerously, we to ourselves.

How many times do we need to flap our arms and jump off the shed roof before accepting that it will lead to broken bodies and broken hearts?

An interesting question arise from this quote-

"I think he was also very much a Victorian personality. The schools he attended in his youth were set up to teach young men— who would later become the leaders of the country and captains of industry— the highest ethics."

Is there any room for Victorians in the 21st century?

Posted by Lois Gory at February 29, 2008 3:14 PM

We need, globally, to get into the “strongest” peaceful mind-set the soonest. Not getting to peace status via waging wars. Sometimes, experts and statesmen may require “chirurgical interventions,” especially under the monitoring of the U.N. diplomacy are called to be reinvented and taken to the highest possible state of refinement. More and more diplomacy and more and more refinement. Then, universal and aggressive enhance diplomacy instituted.

Posted by Andres Agostini at February 29, 2008 4:02 PM

Terrific interview! Looks like a great book. Even the reviews on Amazon.com are enlightening - and shed more info on the larger story. Didn't realize CIA was that disengaged from Vietnam. We sometimes assume that a government's foreign policy is a monolithic effort (e.g. the US's Iraq involvement) when behind the scenes there are usually agencies and factions in conflict. I loved the fact that Hiam's next book is on Eddie Shore, a legendary hockey brawler, whom my parents loved to watch at the Boston Garden when they were dating in the 1930s! Hmmm...I wonder if the ritualized, circumscribed violence of sports (e.g. hockey, football) increases or decreases the appetite for societal aggression (e.g. Vietnam, Iraq).

Posted by John O'Leary at March 1, 2008 12:04 PM

"Is there any room for Victorians in the 21st century?"

I think that independent wealth played a significant role in Sam Adam's ability to do what he did. It resonates in a number of military people speaking out at or near retirement.

I am afraid that the answer generally is no, we do not have room for such behavior. My personal experience supports this.

I have been forced to resign from a non-profit board after I found out and disclosed that management was creating large donations.

I have also lost a career. I resigned as maintenance coordinator at a aviation organization for cause. Several years later, I was questioned by the FAA, 15 aircraft were grounded and the (other) licensed maintenance personnel had their certificates revolked. Those people still have their career path and it has been enhanced.

Posted by s g at March 3, 2008 9:40 AM

Brutal! and not very comforting for the flying public.

Have you found an employer since that honours your ethical stance?

Posted by Lois Gory at March 3, 2008 11:57 AM

Erik...thank you so much for another incredibily beautiful interview. Beauty encompasses all elements of natural, human, and evolutionary processes. One of the greatest points gleaned here for me, among many, is that people are indeed complicated, not simple. Our outlook on things are colored by so many factors, internal and external. God bless those who march in spite of externals toward the greater good. We are made better as a people even if the march is revealed generations later. Thank you to all whose integrity is such that personal comfort is not paramount, but the greater good is.

Although, independent means undoubtedly played a role in Sam Adams unyielding stance, it is also highly probable that his personal level of integrity and sense of justice far exceeded his own comfort. His personal comfort, means or not, within the CIA had to be compromised. These were his colleagues. And think about it, we are talking of none less than the CIA! This organization (God Bless them for the work they do!) is not perceived universally as any less fierce than other government agencies as the armed forces that undoubtedly employ clandestine operatives to secure our safety. God bless those who seek to protect and those who seek to push for the highest level of integrity in seeking; they are not mutually exclusive. There is beauty in seeking.

I absolutely loved the story of Mr. Adams, although perceived as a whistleblower, did not blow his whistle on the men who were throwing bales of coil into the woods, but chose rather to help them re-load their vechile instead. Beautiful! It is always how we do what we do when we do it. Motive, judgement and timing are essential in bringing something to light. The "how," "what," and "when" will more than likely leave a lasting imprint on the heart which more likely bring fundamental systemic change. Motive and intentions are essential to the how. Wisdom and understanding is crucial to the what and when. Goodness should be the ultimate pervasive means.

Posted by Judith Ellis at March 3, 2008 1:28 PM

That timeframe went more like this for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l16jlallBMs

Posted by John at March 3, 2008 7:55 PM

I apologize in advance for the rambling nature of this post.

No, the blacklist though informal is very effective.

The answer to the standard question "Would you rehire him?" is generally no. One is branded as "just not a team player."

I had one company that with which I took a number of flights. The pilot I rode with said I was the best he had ever seen. However, the last flight was a lecture on "Never Ever Talk to the Feds." I was then told that they no longer needed someone in my area and then they promptly hired someone from the area. They hired a very nice gentleman and a very competent person but someone whose official comments strongly contradict what he has personally told me and what I personally observed.

Another organization told me their pilots did not feel they could trust me because I had lied in a letter. The fact that I had never written such a letter nor that they couldnt provide any indication that I had did not seem to faze anyone. Also, individuals have reported to me that any number of the pilots knew nothing of this and that they did not have a problem with me. The ex-Chief Pilot gave me the news that I was no longer welcome, but also told me that he had no problem with me or my behavior.

Ex-co-workers are too scared to return calls, much less act as a reference. Most also grab onto any rationalization to find fault, even if such is based on falsehoods or simple irrationalizations. One example is that one should not be worried about making mandatory maintenance log entries because it might be able to provide evidence for lawyers.

Remember, none of Time's "Person of the Year" whistleblowers (Watkins, Cooper & Rowley) were able to maintain their original career. And we also need to remember that their success is not at all indicative of most who do right. They did right in a perfect confluence of public opinion, intense media scrutiny and regulatory and legal attention with subpoena powers. I think it is very dangerous to use their lessons and experiences and apply them to situations that are not so public. They had and have tremendous support; others do not.

The usual resort is a life without much support or resources, with strong hindering forces.

I agree with much of Ms. Ellis's comments. I think that Mr. Adams' farm was able to help him maintain his balance. I do know it would be very enabling to me. I currently strongly regret not having that kind of resources behind me.

I also feel that she is very right in that he exceeded his personal comfort. I feel it probably contributed to his relatively early death of an apparent heart attack in his mid fifties.

The story of Mr. Adams and the wire coils is generally not a good fit. It is a story where he held the power. He did not abuse it and was very gracious. However, it does not apply to most situations of this type as the power structure is reversed.

I think Ms. Ellis is very wise in her last paragraph. However, realize that these realities undercut the support for doing the right thing.

In my case, I had no control over the timing or the manner in which things where handled. This was all in the perview of the federal investigators. Motive and judgement did not apply. I was only concerned with telling the truth and cooperating. My biggest worry was telling the truth and being contradicted by lies. I felt that telling the truth actually opened me up to the very real possibility of a future perjury charge. If one witness tells the truth and 3 others lie, doesn't the first run a tremendous risk? This is a very real possibility when I have been warned that no matter how truthful I am, the powerful person warning me said he will deny it.

My non-profit board experience is that when I find out that management has apparently lied to both the auditing CPA and the Board, the Board took no action and then blamed me for the resulting uproar. Such rationalizations are the norm in my experience.

As one person told me, things should have waited until someone had died. I vehemently disagree with that statement. However, it is used to sufficiently question my timing, motive and judgement. It is this type of misjudgement, bad thinking and willingness to risk the lives of others that feeds people's tendency to blame others.

Please note I cant claim any specialness. In some small degree, I did wait, though thankfully it was not until a death investigation.

The idea that someone raising an objection or speaking truth to power must do so in a way that is politically wise has some big problems. Does doing so eliminate any duty of care or obligation? No. It is my personal opinion that while it might be wise to do so, it does not eliminate the responsiblity to do so.

As another mechanic who raised some issues told me, nobody cares about the truth.

Mr. Adams' story also resonates in other ways. I too went to a boarding school, one that was revamped in the Victorian age, though without his pedigree and as a scholarship student. I too followed him to the Ivy League though not to Harvard.

Posted by s g at March 4, 2008 1:15 PM

sg...for starters....let me say that my heart is with you. As I read your remarks the reel of one of TP's slides played constantly: "If you don't LOVE POLITICS...find another life. (Don't pretend that you're a leader.)" I know this may seem rather harsh. But it isn't really. It is most crucial to understand who and what you are dealing with and how and when you should take certain issues on. Speaking truth to power seems like a given to you. What then becomes most important for you is how truth is spoken, what it speaks, and when it is spoken.

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While there may not be an inopportune time for truth (because truth simply exists), there is most certainly a better time in which to reveal truth, depending on the circumstance and consequences, both internal and external. My humble suggestion -- which I am learning more and more everyday -- is the how, what and when to reveal a truth. When truth is revealed in a situation that could cause great contention, both wisdom and understanding are most necessary. In situations that seem impassible or impossible, I always look inward first (what are my motives?), while clearly assessing the externals.

Aligning yourself properly is also essential. Find support systems; do not alienate yourself. And remember that there are many ways to skin a rabbit, many ways to scale a mountain. Find a way that respects and honors authority (even if they are not respectable and honorable.) Also find a way that does not leave you utterly vulnerable. Your words to others will also be crucial. Choose them wisely and to whom you speak them carefully. "Only a fool utters all of his thoughts." And you are most certainly NOT a fool. I wish you all the best and honor the virtue you seem to possess.

It was my pleasure to read your comments.

Posted by Judith Ellis at March 4, 2008 2:27 PM

sg...no matter the situation, no matter the appearance of things, there are always options. We need only to find them.

Posted by Judith Ellis at March 4, 2008 2:54 PM

I have thoroughly enjoyed the above posts, and would like to add some personal comments about Sam.I originally knew Sam Adams in elementary school in NYC, and and about five years later he was one of my two best friends at Harvard.I believe we saw over 75 movies together when we should probably have been studying! That was our passion! And every night without fail, around 10 pm a small group of us would meet and go out for beer and burgers. Junior year, when I eloped with my then 18 year old girlfriend, it was Sam who drove us to NH to get married,and then to my bride's parents in Mass.to tell them the news, and from there to NYC to flee from her parents after telling them the news. This all took about a sixteen hour day, which he so generously gave me. And eight years later, in 1962, Sam stayed up the entire night with me while he and I waited for my first son to be born. Sam was probably the most decent ethical honorable person (and definitely the funniest) that I have ever known. It is no surprise to read about his CIA years in War of Numbers and Who the Hell are We Fighting? Like his Revolutionary War ancestor and namesake, Sam would never back down from what he believed was right. I miss him very much.

And I too look forward immensely to Michael Hiam's forthcoming book on Eddie Shore, hockey being another passion of mine.

Posted by John Lorenz at March 8, 2008 11:48 AM

Mr. Lorenz...thank you so much for your memories. It is always good when personal memories are told about such an outstanding man, though we got a pretty good idea of who Mr. Adams was from the interview alone. Thanks to Michael Haim. I too look forward to his upcoming book, though I am not a big hockey fan. The current one will soon arrive at my doorsteps. Many blessings...

Posted by Judith Ellis at March 9, 2008 12:05 PM

Fantastic comments! Thank you, thank you! (It is true that I was in Vietnam and pissed off at what we imagined were the shenanigans going on in Washington. So I loved this book on a personal level. But my point in asking Erik to do this interview had literally nothing to do with Vietnam. I saw it, as many of you have said, as a marvelous story of a brave man doing battle with a giant bureaucracy over issues of character and integrity ... and fact. Such people can just be cranks because of a personal slight or some such--but in this instance, as the front cover blurb for the book says, if they'd listened to Sam, the Vietnam memorial wall might be a bit, perhaps quite a bit, smaller.)

Posted by tom peters at March 10, 2008 9:53 AM

Tom, then, as per your posting, it seems that you raised this story to offer some ideas of great leadership. Many people ask about leadership traits and how to execute it. So any further story like this allows one to place his/her mind on a greater perspective.

I believe his story is inspirational. Without the inspiring effect, there's no leadership in due place. I, personally, scan around all these stories in different places. Century-21 Leaders must meet dynamic challenges that will require any and every piece of savvy insight.

Posted by Andres Agostini at March 14, 2008 2:38 PM