Comments

I remember as clear as a bell 30 years ago when I was a very junior and pretty insignificant manager in healthcare. We interviewed for the position of manager of the cleaning services in the hospital I worked at (actually the job was really about ‘leading’ approximately 50 women). We interviewed about 4 people. Three of them had the right qualifications and technical knowledge about floor cleaning etc. They all ticked the right boxes. The other applicant had just finished working in the UK armed forces and by his own admission knew nothing about the technical aspects of cleaning. On paper he was the least qualified. We appointed him. His best answer in the whole interview to a technical question by the senior Domestic Manager was ‘I don’t know but I’ll find out by lunchtime’

We loved his passion and enthusiasm. It didn't matter to us one iota that he didn't know about the technical stuff. We figured he could find that out easily enough but we didn’t find such passion in the other three. He did not let us down.

For me it is ‘recruit for attitude and train for skills’ rather than the traditional UK model of ‘recruit for skills and train of attitude.’

I make the odd exception by the way … such as the surgeon who may be operating on me in the future! …. At least I think so :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 29, 2008 6:03 PM

Great anecdote Mr. Gay. I agree completely.

Posted by nextgenradio at May 29, 2008 7:04 PM

Trevor, one of my cardiologist friends tells me that he's appalled at how few of his peers even try to keep up with new stuff. So my twist on your comment would be to say I want a surgeon, especially if, say, he-she were in their 40s, who had-still had "a great passion for hearts."

Posted by tom peters at May 29, 2008 7:19 PM

Tom and Trevor... Great sentiments and great lines for a chat over a beer or a glass of quality pinot noir (a la Sideways the movie) when we are all kicked back and having a deep and meaningful philosophical discussion... BUT where the rubber hits the road the world is a very different place... I recently had surgery after a serious sporting injury incurred while playing "full on" tennis with my two teenage sons... When I was in hospital to have my operation I quickly forgot all this crap about passion and attitude... I did not care what the theater team felt, thought, prayed to, attitude to life they held, etc. All that was irrelevant bunk... What I wanted was the guy or gal (I ended up with the guy because of timing) who had done many many many of these operations (successfully) recently... Sorry Trevor I wanted the skill - the technical skill to repair me so that I can walk without a limp for the next 30 years ... Oh yeah and play in your !00+ years old five a side football team... Passion is fine but more often just give me the technical skills because I will bring all the passion that is needed to the situation anyway... Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at May 29, 2008 7:41 PM

Tom, when you talk about "passion," to what extent are you thinking in terms of passion for something specific..like restaurants or hearts...vs passion as a cross-domain attribute of the individual?

A lot of people now seem to use "I have a lot of passion" as an equivalent for "I really, really want to be successful."

Posted by david foster at May 29, 2008 10:01 PM

Tom and Richard - I did a lot of work 18 months ago on doctors revalidation in the UK and I discovered the following from Sir Liam Donaldson a Doctor and the fairly (!!!) important position of Chief Medical Officer to the Government;

'Once doctors reach ‘independence’ status – i.e. consultant level – their knowledge, competence, clinical skills or performance are not formally assessed from that point until they retire. THAT COULD BE 30 YEARS. CONTRAST THAT WITH PILOTS WHO ARE FORMALLY ASSESSED UP TO 100 TIMES IN THAT SAME TIME PERIOD.'

Tom - this quote from Sir Liam’s Report "Better Doctors Safer Patients" brings into context your excellent comment from your Surgeon friend. I have a good mate who is a fairly high profile Vascular Surgeon and he loves it when his patients come to him armed with the latest Google download about their condition. Simon argues this on two points

1 - It illustrates the patients is motivated to find out about their condition
2 - It keeps him on his toes and reminds him he has to stay ahead – ‘customers’ driving the change again!

Like Richard I don’t care if the surgeon has zero passion and the bedside manner of Basil Fawlty provided he/she is technically brilliant ….. And I genuinely believe (with a passion) - it is possible for doctors – like all of us - to ‘be’ both - i.e. passionate and competent.

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 30, 2008 2:43 AM

Richard, there is a lot of evidence supporting "most tries is best." But there is also some intriguing and not insubstantial evidence that medical science is moving so fast that increasingly youth beats experience. If I were having surgery I'd think about that.

Another take on this focuses on the institution rather than the doc. That is, institutions that do a lot of whatever are tops--and that's as much because their systems and teams, from stem to stern and top to "bottom," are geared to do a particular procedure well; eg up here in ski country we have several excellent orthopedic centers--and their mostly merited reputation comes from their overall approach rather than a star doc or two with a jillion procedures under his-her belts. Then there's the issue of crappy-unmeasured performance in general--doing a lot poorly and doing the same dumb things over and over is hardly uncommon. (Remember the old two-liner about laying off Joe with 26-years of hard-earned experience, to which a detractor responds, "not 26 years of experience, but one year of experience repeated 25 times"--not uncommon at all in medical practice.)

My choice for surgery: a top-rep doc who can be proven to be still working at getting better in a top institution geared to my procedure with docs of all ages working as a surgical-science team with a quantitatively demonstrated record of success--in a frigging hospital known for low infection and error rates. Frankly that last bit may be the variable that, statistically, most effects your outcome. And back to the starting point, just as in industry, the safest hospitals have a "passion quality of care-safety"--alas there are damn few such hospitals, and the "famous" med centers often fail this last and most important test.

Posted by tom peters at May 30, 2008 5:11 AM

Thank you for the transcripts. Much appreciated.

Posted by Chetan Dhruve at May 30, 2008 5:17 AM

Passion - I love this subject... thanks Tom. Love passionate actions. Passion drives change. Passion overcomes difficulties. Passion generates action. Passion inspires others.

Few characteristics of passion that I learned.

Pride - proud of the team, proud of the organization, proud of the achievements...

Energy - Drive, "get up & go", stamina to stay the course, force that does not have to be manic

Feel the heat - get involved, take risks, willing to be affected, suffer for the cause

Emotion - angry with failure, happy with success, empathy with people, express feelings

Conflict - challenge mediocrity, argue for beliefs, confront/resolve issues

Celebrate success - work hard/play hard, its okay to have fun, enjoy the challenges, recognize/reward a job well done

Are you a passionate leader? :)

Posted by VK Narayanan at May 30, 2008 5:33 AM

Why in the world would anybody consider going under the knife unless the physician has first proved he/she is passionate about the pursuit of healing? Richard, my wife is a serious triathlete, yoga instructor, runner,etc. She recently had to have her knee repaired, and aside from abating the physical pain, she was very concerned about its impact on her ability to compete. Her first doctor was a competent, "I've done hundreds of these procedures" kind of guy. I am not saying he wasn't passionate, but his passion seemed to be pointed more towards efficiency. "I can get you in and out". My guess, or gut, told me he was passionate about numbers and revenue. Then, at the advice of a world class triathlete she knew, she visited a young physician who specialized in sports injuries and was passionate about sports personally. He spent a lot of time talking with my wife about the total healing process, and a plan to get back to competitive strength. He pointed her towards other experts, including an orthotics expert who pinpointed the original cause of her knee problem, and a physiologist who helped her develop a new and more efficient stride. I really don't believe this team approach would have happened unless this doc was seriously passionate about total healing, not just a successful knee procedure. Passion drives the discipline necessary for the hard practice necessary for mastery. Quite frankly, I notice it more than the diploma on the wall.

Posted by Mike Neiss at May 30, 2008 6:07 AM

Richard, I don't see any disconnect between passion and skill - if you don't have real passion, you're never going to take the trouble to acquire the skills to be truly, outstandingly great. For the kind of performance levels that Tom talks about, you really need to be passionate to an extreme.

Passion doesn't need to be overtly displayed. Just because you are treated by a surgeon who is calm, collected and apparently professionally detached, that doesn't mean there's no passion there.

I don't know if you follow the game of cricket, but if you do, you will know that India's Sachin Tendulkar is considered a batting genius, and one of the all-time greats. He doesn't show emotion like a lot of others do. He's been playing at the highest level (ie, test cricket) since age 16, and has conquered all the peaks. His opponents in Australia's national team - the best in the world for over a decade now - routinely rate him the best of their generation. The late Don Bradman - also an Australian and the best batsman in history - paid Tendulkar the ultimate compliment when he said Tendulkar reminded him (Bradman) of himself. In doing so, Bradman effectively ended the debate about who was the best batsman post-Bradman.

So Tendulkar is regularly asked why he doesn't retire (at age 35), having made tons of money and done everything possible. He has only one answer: I absolutely love this game.

Without that passion, there would've been no genius-level skills.

Posted by Chetan Dhruve at May 30, 2008 6:15 AM

Mike: brilliant!

Posted by tom peters at May 30, 2008 6:52 AM

How lovely to have a complex, nuanced, conversation about passion, the flavors thereof, the limits thereto! Thank you one and all!

Posted by tom peters at May 30, 2008 6:57 AM

Chetan – thank you - I love your sports analogy about Tendulkar who is absolutely brilliant – he is very well liked and respected here in England too by all cricket lovers. Sir Alex Ferguson, Manager of my beloved Manchester United is now 65 years young - still going strong and he has more passion than most soccer coaches in European soccer. His ‘competence’ speaks for itself in the record books – he is the most successful coach in the history of UK soccer. I wonder if he would have been as successful without the passion that goes alongside the competence – I doubt it.

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 30, 2008 9:35 AM

Hi Mike...I love your words.

Posted by Judith Ellis at May 30, 2008 4:34 PM

Tom I agree with all you say here... Surely this notion of passion is complex.. It is individual, it has variable impacts, it has intended & unintended consequences.... BUT it is always human .. When I said I wanted a good technician I did not say I wanted a robot - although that is where surgery might be headed in the future... My primary client last year was a Health Insurance Company and they did a lot of work to support the design and build of a 'practice operating theater' (best way I can describe it) where doctors practiced on dummies to "learn new techniques and upgrade their skills".. This investment was a 'no brainer', eh TOM, because it helps reduce the horrific 'rework' in surgery and keeps Specialists at the cutting edge (so to speak) of their profession...

Chetan ... you can not be an Australian male of my vintage and not love cricket and 'the Don'... I actually saw the great man bat for our Prime Minsters' X1 in Canberra against England... The great man strode to the wicket hit four runs and was bowled so he walked back... the English bowler was almost crying with disappointment for what he had done - I don't think he wanted that wicket at that time on his CV!!! Yeah 'the little master' Tendulkar is a genius too - I saw that interview where the Don compared himself with this great Indian batsman and no one was surprised by that revelation... Tendulkar is much loved and respected out here in Australia - we often see him bat and bat and bat but when he is in that form he rarely wastes a stroke or misses out on hitting a 'bad ball' to the fence or over it... There are many great, and exciting batmen, and we haven't even mentioned bowlers playing today... BUT the best Australian batsmen I have seen is Ricky Ponting (and then Greg Chappel) - Ricky is now or will soon become a legend in my country second only to Sir Donald Bradman... Read 'The Private Don' by Christine Wallace and you decide was 'The Don' all passion or skill and honed technique..., Sorry Tom and all my American friends for this indulgence on the weird English game of cricket - we just love this stuff with a passion....

Mike... I totally agree with you and I sure as hell wanted a surgeon and a team that was both passionate and skillful... How did I tell whether he/she/it was passionate I looked into his/her/its eyes as I listened intently - then I challenged him on every single element of the procedure as to why he would choose to do this rather than that and what the third option was so that I could decide what I wanted and what risks I wanted to take... I actually decided a few key things about my procedure in the end because I was passionate (it is infectious you know) and won everyone's respect with that and because he was passionate he also wanted to do the very best he could by me...Now I am in the hands of the rehab people and they too have to be passionate and skillful and they are... They have actually "slowed me down" with my recovery because they are passionate about their work - they want the best outcome they can get with me... How is your wife now Mike? Has she regained total confidence in her knee and her ability to compete? Is she still as passionate about her sport?

Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at May 30, 2008 6:06 PM

Being passionate about just about everything that I have ever done, I must confess to having the wind knocked out of my sails, buckets of water doused on me, and my passion thought of as out of step.

Over time I have learned to curtail my enthusiasm...to some degree. But believe me passion has caused me some pain early on when my colorful expressions, idealism, and fearlessness just didn't seem to fit. I have since learned to listen to others more closely, understanding their particular orientation; this has helped me to both mirror others and remain my passionate self. This includes the all-important empathy factor.

Where my ideas are not appreciated or valued, I do not press the issue. I go where I'm celebrated and where I can freely celebrate others, no matter the difference of opinion. When other environments (those hostile to passion) are necessary I still strive, understanding clearly where I am and to whom I'm speaking.

Keep right on loving, crickett, Richard. For me, it's a foreign word.

Posted by Judith Ellis at May 30, 2008 6:32 PM

Richard...you saw the Don! Envy is too mild a word for what I feel.

Trevor, the greatest English cricketer - and one of the greatest all-rounders ever - is Ian Botham, in my opinion. He really had off-the-scale passion in everything he did (most notably Headingley 1981 of course, and his walks for charity).

Judith - sorry for nit-picking, it's cricket, not crickett. We're very passionate about the game, so I hope you understand the burning need to correct the error :)

Posted by Chetan Dhruve at May 31, 2008 1:26 PM

Chetan...correction mentally noted. As I am a speaker of more than a few languages, the difference between how languages are spoken and written are often confused, not to mention at any given time, a pure lapse in spelling and punctuation. But I do think I speak the King's English. But sometimes not! Sometimes I ain't feelin' it...ain't down wid it.

So, the sport has the same spelling as one of my most favorite animation characters, the wise friend of Pinocchio, Jimmy Cricket. I wonder if he played the game too. Probably not. I guess some glories of the past empire took where others did not. Is the game a derivative of Great Britian? What a name. Great Britian!

Posted by Judith Ellis at May 31, 2008 2:16 PM

Chetan - now you are talking!! Ian Botham - the greatest English cricketer of all time. Sir Ian (‘Beefy’) Botham is a God in cricket circles here in England. I remember 1981 Headingley as if it were yesterday. After two and a half days England were heading for an almighty thrashing from the old enemy the Aussies. Enter Ian Botham and he turned the whole match around single handed. One mans passion won a test match – a magical moment in sport. Nowadays Botham raises millions of pounds every year through his magnificent charity walks. He has walked thousands of miles raising money for leukaemia and is just as passionate. An inspiring man – I am so proud he is English. Thank you Chetan for reminding me of one the finest moments of our sporting heritage in England. Passion rules my friend!

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 31, 2008 2:33 PM

Trevor...I must admit to respecting your passion here for the game, your country and your forever human charitable element. I must also admit to laughing out loud. Bravo!

Posted by Judith Ellis at May 31, 2008 3:10 PM

Thank you Judith - you are s-o-o-o right with your earlier comment;

'Great Britain? What a name. Great Britian!'

I still believe – with a passion – my country – Britain - is indeed GREAT …. Although I have to admit the name ‘Great Britain’ sounds somewhat dated in 2008. But I know we Brits are among friends on TP Blog.

Posted by Trevor Gay at May 31, 2008 3:30 PM

Dated? Perhaps not. It's a mind-set of conquerors. But as we are all growing and governments are all designing better policies and practices, it is indeed admirable to consider greatness as a unifying agent. Hence, I love the name of my country, for which I have great passion, the United States of America.

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The passion with which our forefathers wrote the United States Declaration of Independence and Constitution, although some were not abiding in truthful reconginition of them, was nothing less than a stroke of genius, understanding the necessity of both unity and individualism. (The responsibility is our to enact and live up to them. Sometimes our writing supercedes our ability to act; other times providence prevails in spite of ourselves.) The passion with which Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address is breathtaking.

Trevor, you are among friends. From what I can gather about the man whose name bears this blog, he undoubtedly has many friends near and way far, geographically and idealogically. So, in the spirit of this man, I can certainly say you are indeed among friends. And as for me, personally, I call you...friends.

Posted by Judith Ellis at May 31, 2008 4:37 PM

Chetan... Yes I did see 'the Don'... he had retired long before and was well and truly past his prime of course... He came back to Captain a traditional Prime Minister's XI against our great rival England.. He was a small man in stature, not unlike Tendulkar, at the crease (very tucked up unlike Greg Chappel who stood straight up as do many modern batsmen).. Bradman was so fluent, with his elbow straight in defense or attack, and thus so technically correct... I can see why the Don would think that Tendulkar, the little master, was so similar to himself.. But the Don played in a different era with tiny bats and thus relied much more on 'timing' than Tendulkar who can simply bluggen a ball to the fence or over it. It seemed to me, remember he only made 4 runs when I saw him, that the Don had to use his feet to enable him to get to the ball much more quickly than Tendulkar does plus he did tend to stretch way forward in his defensive strokes - it would seem truly an exaggerated movement today - I think of Mike Hussey of Australia (the highly consistent left hander) as the best example of that forward stretch today.... Modern batsmen like Ricky Ponting have the advantage over the Don because they play with a big heavy, thick edged, bat... Ponting is a marvel - I have seen more of the current Australian Captain than most others going around today and of course he is such a joy to behold when batting plus his fielding is awesome! Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at May 31, 2008 10:31 PM

"We cannot be sure of having something to live for unless we are willing to die for it" – Che Guevara (Argentine Marxist revolutionary)

It’s by far the best quote on PASSION that I have come across.

Posted by K.Sriram at June 2, 2008 2:19 AM

I'd agree that passion / attitude are more important than knowledge / skill / experience in many professions. However, like all principles, they can break down when taken to their logical end point. Passion without an ability to learn fast can be dangerous.

I meet plenty of people who are passionate, but without some other qualities it can become froth.

I guess my remarks may illustrate my anglo saxon (Great British) conservatism?! :-))(

all the best

Peter Cook

Posted by Peter Cook at June 2, 2008 6:36 AM

Love your partially smiley face, Peter. With your "anglo saxon" comment, you seem to have drawn the discussion of Great Britian and perhaps its Great past to a "logical point." To be more direct to my general thought above, though perhaps specifically drawn with mentioning Great Britian and the US...what needs to be considered is the past of each country, eastern, western, anglo or not, as not to repeat certain parts of it, to become a more unified body globally.

Posted by Judith Ellis at June 2, 2008 7:23 AM