Comments

Congratulations to the US!

What a year 2008 could turn out to be on your side of the pond with much cause for optimism. The military's first female 4-star flag officer and a new, young, fresh and inspiring President come November. This contrasts sharply with my beloved Britain where – I’m very sad to say as a life long Labour Party supporter - we have a tired, stale and charisma deficient Prime Minister lacking leadership qualities, presiding over an imploding Labour Government that is clearly out of control and out of touch with the people.

Now ..... sorry Gordon .... where did I put my passport? :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 8, 2008 7:01 PM

Many thanks to the honorable President George Bush and a great bravo to Lieutenant General Ann Dunwoody. You make us way proud!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 8, 2008 9:53 PM

Trevor, you are too smart to be fooled by the "fresh and inspiring" wannabe prez. If he is elected president it will mean a return to the pessimistic malaise of the middle and late seventies in the US. That's my prediction. The sooner intelligent and caring US voters realize this the better for my country. This is not American Idol, for pity's sake, it's serious stuff!

Gen. Dunwoody is hopefully the beginning of a trend. Integrating women into every aspect of our military should be a top priority--not because it is the "right" thing to do (even though it is), but for the sake of effectiveness. Women make excellent warriors and there is a need for many more to line the ramparts of civilization in the years to come.

Posted by mike at July 9, 2008 7:34 AM

MIKE, MY NEWEST MAIN MAN! LOVED YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH. KIND OF LOST ON THE FIRST,THOUGH.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 9:06 AM

Hi Mike – Of course I bow to your greater knowledge of US Politics. Rest assured however if you had Gordon Brown you would see Mr Obama as fresh and inspiring ... Come to think of it Ronald Reagan is more inspiring and he's been dead a few years. Sorry Gordon ... but that’s how it feels.

I guess you are saying the other person’s grass is not necessarily greener. From a distance Mr Obama looks very very good.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 9, 2008 9:18 AM

yes affirmative action for race and gender will do wonder for military efficiency. I just would like the people who promote this sort of thing to be the ones, for example, stuck in a burning building when a woman fireman - sorry - person - can't carry them out.

But let me ask ...why is it so 'great' women are promoted? This is the sort gutless, praise seeking nonsense which makes me believe your 'advice' is as empty as "The Secret" gurus.
"I hate racism and it makes companies less efficient because diversity is our strength"

Posted by malcolm at July 9, 2008 9:27 AM

Hold up, Trevor, don't bow so deeply yet. There still remains to be seen the full meaning of mike's second paragraph. My "new main man" may be swiftly eliminated by popular vote, American Idol style, by the vote of the people, come November or by one lone American today, depending on his response :-)

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 9:37 AM

Tom,

While we're on the subject, can we have a "well done" for the Church of England House of Bishops who have, finally, agreed to let Women by Bishops in the UK.

Apparently, about 1,300 members of the clergy had threatened to leave the Church if Women were given equality... and I say "good bye" to them :-)

Mark, West Sussex, England

Posted by Mark Harrison at July 9, 2008 9:38 AM

I'm out! Malcolm's comment will keep me glued to my laptop or Blackberry all day and there are "miles to go before I sleep."

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 9:46 AM

Don't know what all the fuss is about. We had a high ranking female "general" in Ad60 - mind you she got pmmelled by the Romans in the end......

Posted by PaulH at July 9, 2008 10:13 AM

Malcolm-

Firefighters work in teams. You won't be rescued by just one, of either gender, and the walking-out-of-the-smoke-carrying-across-the-shoulders thing happens only in movies.

What women lack in upper body strength they make up for in endurance, which is also necessary to fight fires and rescue people. Good teams, in fire halls and out, build on the members' strengths, not weaknesses.

Posted by Lois Gory at July 9, 2008 10:45 AM

So were a great many male generals from AD 60 to the present. I'm out for real this time.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 10:46 AM

So Judith, you think there should be lower standards for women?

And, Judith it does happen 'for real' with navy pilots, for example, another place were standards were lowered.

Women have no business in combat. Period. There are/were occasional ones borne with great leadership abilities, but, usually on a macro level, like Queen Isabella of Spain.

I know judith, next thing you'll tell us that sex differences are social constructs.

mark of sussex: the Church of England. Yeah, that's in great shape, isn't it? Any other bright ideas? Like you or any of the people who forced that agenda on the CofE give a damn about it other than using it for social engineering.

Posted by malcolm at July 9, 2008 1:25 PM

PS,
this still goes unanswered: "But let me ask ...why is it so 'great' women are promoted? "

usually, at this point is when 'open minded' 'challenge conventions' types ban my ip.

Tom Peters, Richard Florida, Malcolm Gladwell, etc, talk feel good nonsense that appeals to the status quo but makes people 'feel' like they are 'edgy' that's their real niche business

Posted by malcolm at July 9, 2008 1:28 PM

PSS The military, the police, the fire department, et al aren't here so women or blacks or whomever can feel good about themselves. They are not here to be politically correct. They are not here to satisfy your social agendas or radical egalitarian theories (which always have to be implemented by lowering standards) they are here to protect us. Once you deviate from that purpose, their 'mission' if you will, they become dangerous. This was clearly illustrated on September 11th and thereafter. To this day we still fiddle-faddle and wring our hands over 'profiling'. Another blatant illustration was post Katrina New Orleans- where the affirmative action hires literally smashed open shop windows to aid looters.

Now Tom Peters is cheering because a butchy looking woman is being promoted over more comptentant male peers. (there is NOTHING in Tom's post to indicate he's happy the best or the most qualified got promoted, only the most politically correct - this is how he shows off his 'status' as a progressive).

One thing's for sure, I wouldn't take advice from this guy.

Posted by malcolm at July 9, 2008 1:43 PM

Gay, Trevor: you are ecstatic that we might elect a mulatto president? Why? Do you know anything about him? What will he do that's different other than being black? Do you know anything about him other than he's black? How does this make society or the US better?

Posted by malcolm at July 9, 2008 1:45 PM

Malcolm - Where did you read I was ‘ecstatic’ about anything? – I get it!! … You are a closet football (soccer) fan. Last time I was ecstatic was when my football team Manchester United won the European Champions League Final on May 21 – How kind it was of you to remind me of a fabulous day – Thank you so much.

Trevor Gay is the order of words by the way, but I forgive you anyway.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 9, 2008 2:42 PM

Malcolm,

Read the article on General Dunwoody. I am curious as to why you think she has reached this level because of her gender instead of in spite of it. I am also curious as to why you think men more qualified were passed up for her. If you have evidence of this, present it. If not - if instead you position is based on some "logic" - then present that argument.

Mere assertive vitriol is not sufficient. At this point, your assertions show more your ignorance of Tom Peters' work than demonstrate any great insight you have to provide.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 9, 2008 3:33 PM

Martin: Two words Affirmative Action.
http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa07.html
At least Colin Powel had the dignity to admit that's why he was promoted. If I have to explain the obvious to you - then you have bigger issues than this - you are completely avoiding reality. I imagine you'll tell us mass immigration is enriching Europe with diversity.

Trever Gay(really is that any better?): Cute, vapid comments don't cover up the fact you didn't answer my question. Fine, I will 'spell it out' for you.
Tom Peters says great a woman is promoted you say 'cause for optimism that 'new' young inspiring man is running for president. In this context its obvious you meant that he was black and that would be a good thing - americas first black (mulatto) president. Of course you know nothing about his politics just that hes' young and inspiring. Yeah that's what we need right now, an inexperienced affirmative action president. Should get the dollar right back up to the 1:1 with the Euro.

Posted by malcolm at July 9, 2008 3:49 PM

Malcolm...Martin addresses a few points that I would like to have addressed. Also, I see that you have not answered Lois' very astute observation regarding team work and endurance, not to mention martial arts training, which I have done for many years. (I can probably take you, no matter your size.) Anyway, is there a reason you didn't respond to Lois' observation? If you're not terribly opposed to further inquiry, could you please answer these questions for me:

*How old are you?
*Where were you raised and under what conditions?
*Were you raised with any kind of faith? (One of my dear friends of 15 years, by the way, is an atheist. Not that you care.)
*Are you married?
*Do you have children? Little girls, perhaps?
*What is the education level of your parents?
*What is your education level?
*What profession or trade are you in?
*Do you serve the general public?
*What is your nationality?
*What is your ethnicity?
*What is your given name?
*Where do you hang out for a beer and with whom, if any others?

These are sincere questions. And you can, of course, chose not to answer some or none of them. You can also shoot me an email at judedellis@gmail.com if you'd prefer. I guess, I'm trying to understand the retro venom displayed so clearly in your comments. Where does this stuff come from? I'd really like to know. And yes, you've probably guessed right...my questions are all socially constructed because it appears that you are socially maladjusted.

Looking forward to your response, Malcolm.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 4:11 PM

"I know judith, next thing you'll tell us that sex differences are social constructs."

Malcolm, from this comment, it appears that you know something about me. But I don't remember your name or voice. Were you aware that during my PhD studies one concentration was women's studies? Sex differences are to my understanding not social constructs, but misogyny and racism are. But my take on some of this stuff may be, in fact, surprising to you. I invite you to take a look at my blog. In particular, please read a post I wrote entitled, "Being Submissive."

Did I say that I was looking forward to your response, Malcolm.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 4:27 PM

Malcolm...Where are you? Checked my gmail account also and I see you haven't left me an email there. Oh, well. All the best.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 9, 2008 7:02 PM

Malcolm – ‘Trever’ is not better because you spelled it incorrectly – its Trevor - but I will forgive you.

‘Young and inspiring’ is what we all need – I love the expression; ‘If you are good enough you are old enough.’ I’m not sure if you are interested in British History – something tells me you are probably not – but anyway William Pitt on becoming the youngest ever Prime Minister at age 25 in 1783 said “Yes I know I am young and inexperienced but it is a fault I am remedying every day.”

Now to answer your specific question; you are quite correct, I know very little about Mr Obama’s politics but I recognise - even from li'l ol' England - the desperate need for change and optimism.

I hope you agree I am entitled to an opinion – even as a Brit - and Mr Obama seems to offer optimism and hope to many people in need of it. For the record, I don’t care (and I don't think it is in any way relevant) whether he is black, white, green, yellow, Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Man or Woman.

‘Optimism' 'hope’ … now there’s two words I suspect rarely cross your lips Malcolm - have a great day.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 10, 2008 8:43 AM

It looks like "Malcolm" (familiar syntax?) has taken his bat and balls and gone home.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 9:10 AM

no judith, as correctly predicted, my Ip and/or name was blocked (i post this from a proxy) - simply for challenging your views. you didn't 'win' your 'side' 'won' as it always does- by censoring. You can only avoid reality so long, so enjoy it while you can!

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 9:28 AM

it looks like my comments are being moderated and taking longer to show up.

Trevor, of course, you are wrong, I am big fan of many areas of British history: military and naval - particularly the Napoleonic wars, intellectual movements ( 18th century Edinburgh), late 18th /early 19th century painters (lawrence, turner, bodington), in short you couldn't be more wrong.

America has serious fundamental problems - we don't need an empty headed cheerleader - who is utterly corrupt and, if you knew anything about him you'd realize he's already: sold out to the Israeli lobby, and has designs on Africa (he wants to bring the 'crusade for democracy' that's worked so brilliantly in Iraq, to places like Darfur) He has not offered one serious solution to our 'big' problems -which include a sinking dollar, trade deficit, declining manufacturing base, mass legal and illegal immigration that is causing quality of life issues for the poorest, hardest hit americans. Sorry, and empty pledge of 'hope' doesn't cut it.

Judith: lets see you want a bunch of demographic information about me so you can 'prove' I am one of those bitter white people Obama talked about? So you can 'prove' my views are a reflection of being 'socially maladjusted'. Yeah you have real 'open' mind.

To be honest with you Judith, I don't take you seriously - or anyone who makes a 'living' off their race or gender. I am sure you will tell me you have this or that degree, or scored some implausibly high number on the SAT, but at the end of the day you ticked off "black" on your application form.

Nothing wrong with using that to advance, but beyond that you need to actually accomplish something tangible. Sorry.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 9:47 AM

PS meant bonington, not bodington , shame i have to waste time typing this but no doubt Trevor will post it as some 'proof' of a triumph over me. Ah- ha you're mistaking an early 19th century watercolorist for a British beer.

It's been entertaining folks, as Jung said, people can't take too much reality and that's fairly evident here - you'll cling to you ideologies even when reality conflict with it.

I would suggest you 'really' challenge your conventions some time, but I doubt that will happen.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 9:54 AM

Malcolm - You are right - It's been really entertaining - one thing maybe we can agree on - Boddingtons is a fabulous English beer!

PS ... As regards Jung - Rest assured I love ‘reality’ - it surrounds me everyday :-) Best - Trevor

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 10, 2008 10:12 AM

just one more little point:
"Malcolm...Martin addresses a few points that I would like to have addressed. Also, I see that you have not answered Lois' very astute observation regarding team work and endurance,"

first, I did answer it Louis 'astute' observation: Then why not find people with the best strength and endurance - the point is standards have to be lowered for women, or they would not be among the best candidates -now the FDNY has lowered it standards to admit blacks - so we can expect a lot more fire related deaths in the coming years.

I did address martin's points. If I have to point what Colin Powel has admitted publicly then I can only conclude Martin and you are either a. uninformed b. so blinded by ideology that you can't see reality. "women are just as good as men, but we need affirmative action...how dare you suggest that any woman was promoted because of affirmative action" - its almost comical to read, if it were not so damaging to society.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 10:15 AM

Alas, Trevor, I prefer fuller's london pride, as served at the Anglesea Arms...but I apprecitate the sentiment. I am glad you like reality, there's some heaping doses of it on the way.

OK, now I feel like sandra bernhart after her 10th 'farewell' tour.
Later everyone.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 10:18 AM

Hi Malcolm, So, you can only challenge views incognito? What's up with that? Anyway, I see that you have returned with bat in hand, but where are your balls? And what's with the "you didn't 'win' your side 'won' as it always does?" My dear, Malcolm, there are no winners or losers here; there are only, hopefully, viable discussions intended to bring change, beginning first with the changing of minds -- mine and yours. Some of us have a further way to go then others. And, I suspect that you, dear one, have your work cut out for you. But don't dispair. You can do it! Yes, YOU, Can! Change I believe in.

It it appears to me that change is not something you value. I'm sure if it were up to you the likes of myself would have remained back in the deep south on the plantation, hung up in trees, or nursing the likes of your great great great grands? (Did you ever answer my question about your age? Didn't know how many greats to add.) But what you perhaps failed to recognize is that according to science mankind began in Africa where our joint heritage can be celebrated anywhere in the world.

I'm sure you can appreciate science, if not spirituality, although there are scientific reasons to be believe that they are compatible. Sorry to inform you that whiteness (you are white, eh?) does not inherently raise your consciousness or intelligence -- obviously. Where there are great disparities among people of any race or race or where there are such disparities with gender, there are ALWAYS social reasons, though there are varying beliefs in how such disparities should be addressed. BUT we are made of the same stuff, all hailing from Mother Africa.

I will most certainly en- JOY life! In fact, check out my blog. (Have you done so yet?) There you will find a post entitled "Being Joyful." Now, the style of music may or may not be something you're into. But what you cannot dispute is that these young people are ENJOYING life. Do you? However you do it, just do it! I'm afraid, however, as stated that there may be some serious issues for you to work through before joy will grace your heart, feet or parched lips. But YOU can do it! Yes, YOU can!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 10:39 AM

OK Malcolm....you win! How does that feel? All the best, dear one. This I sincerely mean.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 10:43 AM

oh crap one more:
"It it appears to me that change is not something you value. I'm sure if it were up to you the likes of myself would have remained back in the deep south on the plantation, hung up in trees, or nursing the likes of your great great great grands?"

This sort of insult and hyperbole is a classic example of playing the race card. "don't like affirmative action? You must want blacks lynched". Sorry Judith, just can't take this seriously. It shows a complete avoidance of the subject. And whether or not we came out of Africa is as silly statement as saying we share 97% of DNA with chimpanzees, or that we all came out of the ocean. "We all came from mother Africa (read black identity is somehow more 'authentic' than white) but we are equal, but some deserve more equal treatment than others" or something like that? God, Orwell thought he was writing fiction.

"Change" is not neither good nor bad - which you don't seem to understand from your blanket statement "change is not something you appear to value". The Bolshevik takeover of Russia was a 'change' from the Czar, but for the 20 million or so people that died under the Bolsheviks it wasn't a terrible good change. I have to point out basic things like this, and you want me to take you seriously?

Concerning science and spiritually, I have subscribe to the Faraday Institute Podcast and have read books by several scientist theologians on the subject. More incorrect assumptions on your part.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 11:17 AM

Blessings...Malcolm. "Winning" suits you.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 11:27 AM

That's really funny. An archived website from the Clinton years that has not been updated since 1999, and that is evidence that Gen Dunwoody was promoted ahead of more qualified candidates?

Here it is short and pithy:

Ideology does not equal evidence.

As to censorship, censor what? Invective and personal attacks? Certainly not any position or prejudice we have not heard before (long before) now. If you look at the ground rules for posting comments, you may note that the first rule is no personal attacks. You need look no further to understand why your posts are being moderated.

William of Ockham said it best: "Do not multiply entities unnecessarily." Before you come up with fanciful rationalizations for the reception of your posts, look for the simple explanation.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 10, 2008 11:35 AM

Here's a cynic's view.
Mr Peters talks up women because women are
in executuve positions and can call on and
pay for his services. His stance is merely marketing.

Posted by frank at July 10, 2008 1:57 PM

Martin, Do not multiply entities unnecessarily. Gee, I can quote Ockham too, what does this prove?

Why did Tom post this in the first place? Was it because the first quartermaster general achieved this rank, or because a woman did? Why is tom going out of his way to post this? Why do you think the army and bush and congress took this unprecidented step - to give this rank to a non combatant quartermaster? (quartermaster generals usually are one star) I'd love to hear the excuses.
Obviously advancing women (and minorities) is some sort of twisted 'goal' or 'ideal' to some people - as is 'diversity' (even though the evidence is overwhelming that diverse 'societies' are far worse off than homogeneous ones...of course you knew that...oh, no you don't? Do you want me to do your research (and thinking) for you on that as well? Do you, or do you not acknowledge that Colin Powell has admitted he was the beneficiary of affirmative action?

BTW Martin what country do you live in? Please, tell me how its been 'enriched' by diversity, I need a good laugh.

You accuse me of personal attacks? Judith implied that i wanted to lynch blacks or have them re-enslaved, and accused me of being 'socially maladjusted" (For disagreeing with her views)

BTW judith, I don't expect an apology for your insult, but it clearly shows you do play 'the race card'

You either honestly believe that being against affirmative action means that I want to lynch blacks and/or enslave them, or you don't really believe that - but know that it will intimidate most whites or at the least, put them on the defensive. I am sure you've had a lot practice with this in real life.

And while you're going on with praise about your own virtues (how loving, happy and open minded you are), you may want to consider room for improvement. Rather than assume that I have certain views or don't (as you did about religion and spirituality ) you could ask, rather than accuse or assume. Just a tip.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 2:04 PM

frank: spot on. Malcolm Gladwell does the same sort of thing, tells people things they want to hear.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 2:05 PM

Malcolm...I have asked more than a few questions of you that have gone unanswered. This will clear a great many things up. But I must say that the more you write the more you become obvious to us all. Keep writing; there may not be a need after all for you to answer my questions. But to clear all assumptions, here they are again:

*How old are you?
*Where were you raised and under what conditions?
*Were you raised with any kind of faith? (One of my dear friends of 15 years, by the way, is an atheist. Not that you care.)
*Are you married?
*Do you have children? Little girls, perhaps?
*What is the education level of your parents?
*What is your education level?
*What profession or trade are you in?
*Do you serve the general public?
*What is your nationality?
*What is your ethnicity?
*What is your given name?
*Where do you hang out for a beer and with whom, if any others?

Regarding assumptions, have I given my views of affirmative action? Or, have you made assumptions based on my gender and race? We do not have to look very far, in fact, to answer many of the questions that I have asked of you. Your comments speak volumes. Many others have just simply not found the need to respond to your comments. But, of course, I am sure you will see these others as slightly askewed. Those with askewed vision always see things slightly cocked, even when, in fact, the maladjustment is internal and not external.

It is not by coincidence that both malcolm and frank will not reveal themselves. Only cowards, ball-less individuals, male or female, hurl insults and hide behind proxies. (No worries--you won't get an apology from me. No need here.) Funny thing...in a conversation on a recent post I felt personally attacked when on the 4th words were spoken against the country that I love best.

Were you around then? Perhaps disguised as yet another? You write as an American with the whole "we" bit, but I'm not feeling you. With your jaundiced outlook, I can't imagine you sitting idly by during that 4th discussion. Perhaps to your dismay, I must inform you that the words you have spoken here have not offended me, caused me discomfort, or angered me. (I have even LOL!) In fact, I feel a great deal of pity for you, knowing simply by your words, not mere assumptions, that you can be soooo much better.

Regarding TP, I'm sure he has no interest in what you or frank have to say in the very least. But it is, on the other hand, very obvious that you need to be heard. By the way, have you written any books? Are you a national and international best seller? Have you done any seminars nationally and internationally with thousands in attendance? Do you have a blog? How about a website? Do great men and women of business and government worldwide call you friend?

Just as a reminder: you are still "winning!"

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 3:24 PM

Oh you got me.
I haven't written any books and no great men or women consider me to be their friend.
What was I thinking when I decided to express my opinion on an Internet blog.

Posted by frank at July 10, 2008 4:13 PM

"It is not by coincidence that both malcolm and frank will not reveal themselves. Only cowards, ball-less individuals, male or female, hurl insults and hide behind proxies."

In Europe and practically speaking, in the US saying such things can easily get you fired. All a minority need to do is stroll into HR, say that so and so's comment made them 'uncomfortable' and the white male will be shown the door. Just read up an the noose hysteria to confirm that.

Regarding the 4th, no the first post on this thread is my first post here.

Again you accused me of wanting to lynch blacks and/or want them 'back on the plantation' because I am against affirmative action. That says it all.

As for America- my ancestors founded it and fought for it, and I think George Bush, among others, should be put on trial for treason.

Its rather funny that you would judge the quality of views on popularity (tom peters is popular, therefore, good) James Watson - an internationally renowned expert on genetics- suggested that low iq and the sorry state of africa might largely be due to genetics. Within 24 hours, his career was pretty much over...then you wonder why people hide their names and then equate popularity with validity? You and people like you have helped to create an environment where ideas can't be discussed openly. As you may or may not know, in Europe and Canada I could prosecuted for this conversation.

Sense you are such an 'astute' 'scholar' of American history, you would, OF COURSE, know that anonymous publication is an Anglo-American political traditional going back to at least the 18th century. The Federalist Papers were published by "ball-less' in your words, anonymous authors.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 4:26 PM

"Oh you got me" sounds like you too want to be considered in that "winning" category. No problem. You are henceforth donned a winner too, irregardless as to whether you've written any books, are a national and internation best seller, done any seminars nationally and internationally with thousands in attendance, have a blog or website, or whether great men and women of business and governemtn worldwide call you friend. You're a "winner," man! Stick you chest out far! And, dear Frank, it's not a matter of expressing your opinion on an Internet blog; I'm seeking further understanding of who you are, as to what forms your opinions. But it's not terribly important, I guess. It's all good. You're a winner too!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 4:33 PM

Malcolm...I'm not worried about getting fired. I own my businesses. How about you?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 4:34 PM

Oh, Malcolm, my dear, you are most certainly NOT to be compared to the likes of the authors of The Federalists Papers. You think MUCH too highly of yourself. And also, my dear, from your words here, you are most certainly NO great man, but a rather weak one indeed. But there is hope! There is ALWAYS hope!

A gentle reminder: you are still "winning."

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 4:42 PM

Judith you called - Publius -- Hamilton, Jay and Madison ball-less? don't you feel un-American?

Judith what sort of business? race and gender hustling? fulfilling set aside quotas for government contracts and EOE commitments? Like I care? Do you honestly think you could succeed without playing up your race and gender?

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 4:43 PM

What part of Europe do you hail from Malcolm?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 4:43 PM

Judith, as usual, you are wrong. I didn't compare myself with the authors, YOU are the one who said anonymous=ball less, and you were apparently unaware that anonymous political commentary is an old anglo american tradition. You also didn't even acknowledge what happens to even 'established' 'famous' men who challenge egalitarian dogma.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 4:46 PM

Malcolm...You're too funny, my dear :-) Now, that YOU have defined my businesses. Yours, please?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 4:48 PM

"What part of Europe" I said my ancestors founded and fought for this country. This country...the United States of America. If you mean my ancestors, you can safely assume that I share the common ancestry of the founding fathers.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 4:49 PM

") Now, that YOU have defined my businesses."

No, I asked what sort of business you ran. How do you get your clients? Do you market yourself as minority or women owned 'firm' or consultancy?

Posted by malcolm_ at July 10, 2008 4:50 PM

Too funny...indeed! You have returned with a vengenance, eh? Now, I remember you! What were you called then? It was some name that began with an "S." Hmmm? And for a realistic perdiction, unless you undergo a major transformation, which is possible, you will never be one of those "'famous' men who challenge egalitarian dogma" and others live centuries later to speak of it. Presently, my dear, you think much too highly of yourself.

Do you consider what TP does as egalitarian dogma? Oh, forget that question. Really! What you consider is becoming increasingly more and more irrelevant, even as a counter to reality. You are disintegrating before our eyes and revealing yet more about yourself. I remember you now. But please pick up your face.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 4:58 PM

My answer to your question may greatly surprise you. But, Malcolm, why should I answer anything about myself or my businesses when you have not done the same in kind? My life has always been an open book.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 5:03 PM

Malcolm, my dear, those on this site have been very kind to let us go on and on. My email is judedellis@gmail.com should you like to have further discussions. I have offered the email before. But before I go, Malcolm, your ancestors, know that you have informed me of them, may have very well suckled at the breasts of mine. You, got the email, eh? Best...

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 10, 2008 5:08 PM

"But, Malcolm, why should I answer anything about myself or my businesses when you have not done the same in kind? My life has always been an open book."

You contradict yourself in the same sentence. I am going to assume you make your living off race hustling, since you're avoiding the question - do you market yourself as a minority/woman owned entity.

"Now, I remember you! What were you called then"
Anyway, I don't know why you keep harping on the idea that I am someone else? As mentioned my first post on this blog was the first one on this thread.

Let us, for argument's sake, assume I am the owner of an inc 500 company - fast growing, highly profitable. If I were to say what watson did, the EOE and an army of labor attorney's would seize it as 'proof' I was discriminating against blacks. If you can't acknowledge the reality of this, I don't know what to say.

"know that you have informed me of them, may have very well suckled at the breasts of mine"

You seem to be fascinated with the idea I despise blacks, or more fantastically, women. I simply want blacks and other so called minorities to stop getting special treatment which automatically equates, in your mind, to hatred. As Bill Cosby sort of said: grow up. I don't think that will happen. Race hustling is a multi million, if not billion, dollar industry.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 11, 2008 9:52 AM

"And for a realistic perdiction, unless you undergo a major transformation, which is possible, you will never be one of those "'famous' men who challenge egalitarian dogma" and others live centuries later to speak of it. Presently, my dear, you think much too highly of yourself."

Once again, you fail to understand what I was talking about. Either that or you are deliberately avoiding the issue by turning to a personal attack (given your track record on this thread, that's far more likely). The point was that watson was -defamed, rather quickly once he challenged the dogma. Had he not 'recanted' he would have been marginalized. I am sure there are plenty of people who hold his views (its pretty hard to be a scientist and not) but fear the repercussions of publicly airing them.

Actually, Judith, if i were you, I would hide my identity, if you actually 'do' anything beyond being the person they put on brochures and point too when someone asks about diversity - because I would be wary of hiring anyone with such faulty powers of reason.

a non personal question. Are you aware of that Malcolm Gladwell pretty much writes utter nonsense - but it sounds 'edgy' and thought provoking so he commands thousands of dollars for speaking fees.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 11, 2008 12:25 PM

"Oh you got me" sounds like you too want to be considered in that "winning" category. No problem. You are henceforth donned a winner too, irregardless as to whether you've written any books, are a national and internation best seller, done any seminars nationally and internationally with thousands in attendance, have a blog or website, or whether great men and women of business and governemtn worldwide call you friend. You're a "winner," man!"

van gough sold less than a half dozen paintings in his life time.
Copernicus never published his work (it was published posthumously)
The great Spanish painter Zurburan died penniless.
Meville's Moby Dick was pretty much a failure and he had to work in a customs house...

i guess to a vapid, materialistic shallow person, these people are also not 'winners' am i correct Judith? ALL that matters is how popular you are with your peers, how many books you sell, and mainstream media- because we all know how open minded they are to ideas that challenge them.

I am sure glad we had set aside quotas so you could get your degree over more qualified people, because you're really putting it great use. You do realize that you were chosen over more qualified people, simply because of your skin color, correct? Lets see if you have the guts to at least admit that.

And with that, I really will leave here now never to waste my time with you or Tom Peters (!) pseudo radical thinking.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 11, 2008 2:33 PM

I guess I morbidly fascinated by the stupidity here...this is a site allegedly ran for and read by 'high achieving' businessmen ? Then I read fantasy-nonsense like this::

" Integrating women into every aspect of our military should be a top priority--not because it is the "right" thing to do (even though it is), but for the sake of effectiveness. Women make excellent warriors and there is a need for many more to line the ramparts of civilization in the years to come.

Posted by mike at July 9, 2008 7:34 AM"

Mike this post is so far removed from reality its almost comical. Women for the most part make terrible 'warriors' they are not as strong or aggressive, and don't have as sharp spatial perception. We spend millions of wasted dollars and God knows how many lives so some bull dykes can act out their fantasies.

Please, mike, show me instances in history where women made such good warriors that they replaced men. Don't say some nonsense that they couldn't because of discrimination - good warriors have always been able to distinguish themselves. For example the Gurkha and Rajput regiments in the British army.

Reading the fantasy egalitarian comments here has been enlightening...

Posted by malcolm_ at July 11, 2008 3:30 PM

A word on reason or being reasonable. I have seen none of it in your posts malcolm - despite your claims. It is much easier to claim to have reason, logic, or thoughtfulness on your side than actually to have it.

You hold that Gen. Dunwoody does not deserve to be promoted, yet the reasons for this position are (a) argumentatively flawed or are (b) untenable assumptions. Your "evidence" consists in the declaration of the existence of Affirmative Action (actually the existence of same in a previous administration). Another argument you seem to make implies that it would be impossible for her to be genuinely worthy of such a promotion. You also mention Colin Powell as having admitted to being benefited by Affirmative Action.

The first, that affirmative action exists therefore means that she is undeserving of the honor, is a straightforward non sequitur. Second, that her gender makes it impossible that she be deserving of the promotion is an unsupported assertion (and a very suspect one at that). The third, regarding Colin Powell, is irrelevant.

You make many claims about gender and race, but I have only seen claims - nothing substantial behind them. Thus, your claim to using reason loses weight. The lack of analysis, shallowness of argument, and liberal use of red herrings, make the reason score of your posts very low.

One last note about my responses. I have made no assertion about gender, race, or diversity in these posts. I have only challenged you to reveal your thinking (and reasons for thinking the way you do). If you feel threatened by this and must resort to ridicule in the attempt to respond, so be it - but don't expect anyone to believe that you are the one being rational or reasonable in the conversation.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 11, 2008 4:00 PM

Martin,
There has never been a quartermaster general promoted above one star. This is the only 'path' for women to achieve four star rank since they are (rightfully) non combatant. The unprecedented happens in a society obsessed with race and gender issues, Tom Peters cheers that he happy that a woman got promoted but, like many obama supporters, can cite one reason why she actually was promoted.

None of you acknowledge that ending so called discrimination and increasing the numbers of females in historically male positions has been an openly stated goal of most western governments.

Fine martin we'll avoid the issue of how your country is being enriched by divirsity - tell me, why do you think that tom Peters, sorry, tom peters!, posted this in the first place?

Posted by malcolm_ at July 11, 2008 4:26 PM

Folks - Dare I suggest it's time for some smiles around here. Received in my inbox the other day - hope this brings some light relief.

GETTING THE EMAIL ADDRESS RIGHT

A Minneapolis couple decided to go to Florida to thaw out during a particularly icy winter. They planned to stay at the same hotel where they spent their honeymoon 20 years earlier.

Because of hectic schedules, the husband left Minnesota and flew to Florida on Thursday, with his wife flying down the following day. The husband checked into the hotel. There was a computer in his room, so he decided to send an e-mail to his wife. However, he accidentally left one letter out of her e-mail address, and, without realising his error, sent the e-mail.

Meanwhile, somewhere in Houston, a widow had just returned home from her husband’s funeral. He was a minister who had a heart attack and died. The widow decided to check her e-mail, expecting messages from relatives and friends. After reading the first message, she screamed and fainted. The widow’s son rushed into the room and saw the computer screen which read:

To: My Loving Wife
Subject: I’ve Arrived
Date: October 16, 2004

I know you’re surprised to hear from me. They have computers here now and you are allowed to send e-mails to your loved ones. I’ve just arrived and have been checked in. I see that everything has been prepared for your arrival tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing you then! Hope your journey is uneventful as mine was.

P.S Sure is damn hot down here!

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 11, 2008 4:30 PM

Malcolm: first sentence: false. Most Qtr. Master Generals have been two stars. This one is getting more responsibilities than traditionally given to Quartermaster Generals, so check your book on promotions to see the rules on this one. After that, we get prejudice, so well leave that out - not worth comment as mere assertion.

As to Tom Peters and his comment on women, I think he has maintained for over 20 years that women are a credit to businesses and more women should be in positions of influence. As for his myriad of reasons - do your homework! There is plenty of free content written by Tom to explain his position. One point: women are customers too. In order to serve them well, you should have them well represented in your workforce. This is not about affirmative action - it is about business.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 11, 2008 5:27 PM

Ah, a correction - she is being promoted from Quartermaster General to Army Materiel Command General - and THOSE traditionally have been four star generals. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Materiel_Command

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 11, 2008 6:03 PM

Malcolm...A great many delusional persons i.e., Hitler, Idi Amin, Jim Jones, Timothy McVeigh, the Columbine School shooters, etc., thought of themselves in lofty terms, undoubtedly likening themselves to such great men as the authors of the Federalist Papers, Corpernicus, Van Gogh, Zurburan and Melville.

Many delusional persons are bright; many are functional and persuasive. Yet, those looking on externally know that such comparisons, veiled or forthrightly spoken, with such great men is highly delusional, perhaps even dangerous. They darkended above too began somewhere; darkness has no color. Where are you?

I must inform you, dear one, that you are NO Copernicus, Van Gogh, Zurburan or Melville. Delusional persons clearly see themselves in a lofty altogether different light, while those, not guided by falty reasoning, clearly see otherwise. Sad thing, though, some people are often dupped and even tragically.

Now, I do not know you, Malcolm. This I admit. But there is a madness and anger in your writing that bespeak a very delusional twisted reasoning. The language is one of hate. And, oh, you turn phrases to suit your arguments so very well. But turning phrases have been around since the forever. But it does not make the phrase truthful or reasonable.

Malcolm, please pick up your face and look squarely in the mirror. If you are honest, there you will see what others see in your writing. Through your words your eyes reveal madness, your lips hatred, the corners of your mouth sadness, your brow fierceness, and your nostrils anger.

Do you love your mother?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 11, 2008 8:40 PM

I must inform you, dear one, that you are NO Copernicus, Van Gogh, Zurburan or Melville. Delusional persons clearly see themselves in a

Now, I do not know you, Malcolm"

Judith as usual you a. contradict yourself. b. do not understand what i am saying. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Granted i have some typos and such, but are you just not getting it? YOU are the one that set the measurement of an accomplished person - that they are popular, monetarily successful, and have best selling books. I gave you examples of people who are not. and you again, go off on a hyperpole, comparing me to a terrorist and dictator.

How do you know I am 'angry' I am just pointing out your folly, your foolishness, your inability to reason. Its sort of funny, actually.

Again simply because I post views different from you, you assume that i am some how unhappy or unsuccessful.

You have accused me of madness and anger. Prove it. Sorry this isn't women's studies or some place where you will be coddled because you are a minority: prove your statement.

I will again ask, how does if feel to be so shallow and materialistic - and you clearly demonstrated you are by the ways in which you judge people - knowing that you were accepted to a university that you would otherwise have never gotten in, simply because you chose 'black' on your application? Do you feel any shame?

Martin, just one of YOUR incorrect assumptions:
"One point: women are customers too. In order to serve them well, you should have them well represented in your workforce."

gee how do china and/or japan dominate so many of our sectors? because they have diverse work forces and/or women employed? Laughable.

Martin, are you aware:
a. the new york times and other big media and/or many of our elite have been pressuring the military to promote women, minorities (so called) and gays - and even give them congressional medals of honor. Three examples:
1. in the first gulf war, a woman was given the congressional medal of honor there is quite a bit of controversy surrounding this - the military was basically 'told' they would 'find' a woman hero before the gulf war began.
2. the new york times had a cover magazine about a gay marine - what a wonderful soldier he was, a soft promo piece advocating gays in the military. they never mentioned he did gay porn films, often using his marine status as a selling point.
3. the first female navy pilot crashed her plane - pilot error - and died, the new york times had a glowing piece about her 'breaking barriers' never mentioning the failure (or that standards were lowered so she could become a pilot

larry summers simply suggested (based on sound evidence) there are cognitive differences between men and women - he was forced out of his job not before he was forced to turn over millions for programs designed to get more women in engineering and math.

In this sort of environment you expect good faith on this issue and assume Dunwoody has been promoted for no other reason than her abilities, correct? Tell me martin, when you see gypsie children in paris or rome, do you hide your wallet? according to mass media and government they oppressed 'roma' and everyone who speaks up about them, bigots. The reality in the media is quite different than how things are on the street.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 9:12 AM

ikening themselves to such great men as the authors of the Federalist Papers, Corpernicus, Van Gogh, Zurburan and Melville.

just another note judith - you likened the authors of the Federalist papers to anonymous coward, I doubt you know who Zurburan is, or the that Copernicus's work was published posthumously. You maybe know Melvile because of the made for TV movie.

PS Martin, what is your specialty. I need to make a new fuel efficient car, so I better make sure I have women and blacks on the design and manufacturing team because otherwise it might come out right. Yeah, I sure rest easier knowing our military is diverse and has women on it, otherwise they wouldn't be able to defend us. so what if we have to lower the standards - for example at west point - for female and minority cadets. big deal. those were silly standards anyway.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 9:25 AM

Just a gentle reminder, Malcolm: You are still "winning!"

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 10:41 AM

"As to Tom Peters and his comment on women, I think he has maintained for over 20 years that women are a credit to businesses and more women should be in positions of influence."

Martin: one more question, please, satisfy my morbid curiousity.

What do you think would happen to Tom Peters! if he wrote that:
a. because there are cognative differences between men and women companies shouldn't worry about having less women in engineering positions nor should they be pressured to.
b. diversity actually stifles open discussion and creativity and generally homogenuous societies are more stable and creative.

do you think Tom Peters! would be selling so many books and being hired by so many corporations to speak? do you think Tom Peters! would be considered one who challenges corporate dogma (when its self evident that he doesn't) or a pariah?

what if you suggested such things at your workplace. would you be fired?

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 10:45 AM

Judith, it must be so awful for you. in any corporation and all through your academic years you were never challenged. Whites were always careful around you, knowing that at any time you had the double barrel of gender and race. A professor sees you've written a second rate essay, but but so has the other black kid in the class. If he gives you both D's he'll be accused or racism. You say something completely illogical as you have done here, no white executive will challenge you, because you'll huff over to HR and talk about what a hater he is (as you have done here, even though I have nowhere, indicated I hate blacks) .

Of course, all that time you probably kind of knew you didn't belong at the universities you got into, the grades you got and jobs...so its easier to just accuse people who point it out of 'hate', or more laughably, envy.

Must be really tough for you on this thread isn't it?

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 10:50 AM

Malcolm,

At this point, I would think it is quite useless to engage with an ideologue who prattles on and on and so far has completely failed to present a cogent argument.

Certainly, each of your positions about human nature/gender/race have been refuted quite handily in scientific, sociological, political, and business areas. That you reject them (or are unaware of them) says more about you than anything else.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 12, 2008 10:56 AM

"Certainly, each of your positions about human nature/gender/race have been refuted quite handily in scientific, sociological, political, and business areas. That you reject them (or are unaware of them) says more about you than anything else."

Martin you could have just as easily answered what would happen to Tom Peters! ...and no the positions about human nature/gender/race have not been refuted they have been suppressed-the evidence at the very least, about cognative differences between men and women is overwhelming, not that the truth helps, just ask larry summers, but, go ahead martin, stick your head in the sand. that's what innovators and edgy thinkers like Tom Peters! are doing. You'll do well in the corporate world.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 11:03 AM

At breakfast this monring at a very well populated and favorite spot, there sat a table of five: 2 Anglo men, 1 African American male, 1 Arabic male, and 1 woman with beautiful blonde hair. They were a very pleasant bunch, obviously out for an early Saturday morning breakfast, but to discuss business as well. I watched them and listend in occassionally; they were not trying to conceal anything. If so, they would have certainly been in the wrong spot; this is a tight quaint space, a lovely one...indeed.

All had interesting contributions to make and by their faces and tones, showed a genuine concern for their business and for each other. There were smiles, laughter and plenty of questions. One gentleman's beeper went off a few times. He reached for his phone and having made the connection groped around for a pen and paper. Without batting an eye the blonde, sufficiently heeled and neatly coiffured for a Saturday morning, calmly reached into her Fendi bag, retrieving a leather writing pad and gold pen. The gentleman was relieved; by his reaction, the call seemed important.

Why did I relay this story? I did not tell this little tale to highlight the resourcefulness or preparedness of women, nor of our administrative abilities--necessarily. But I do so to show that we do think and prepare differently, whether in battle on the field or at the office. This could make all the difference in the world, especially in areas that have been predominately male-dominated. Maybe we would not be in the mess we are currently in Iraq on the battle field and off if there were women who were a part of the war room and battlefield. Differences enhance the whole, not distract from it. Many of those delusional others mentioned here sought desperately for segregations of all types and look at the "winning" feats they accomplished.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 11:10 AM

Malcolm...Here are a few facts about me:

• I am an African American compassionate passionate businesswoman.
• My paternal great grandfather was a respected scholar, theologian, prolific writer and composer with song in hymnal worldwide, a painter, and a massively successful businessman.
  *My maternal great grandparents were in the entertainiment and real estate businesses and were also massively successful.
  *My paternal and maternal great grandparents were also international travellers.
  *My great grandparents lived during a time that they could have found them lynched for the slightest stare.
  *My great grandparents survived and thrived before Affirmative Action. We were taught to do the same.
  *I am the youngest of 12.
  *My siblings are all are upstanding citizens and business persons. Additionally, all are ministers, missionaries and chaplains with open minds. No dogma here.
  *My siblings and I were taught to serve...FIRST!
  *My education: PhD level from highly respected universities.
  *My languages: Four. Currently working on another: Mandarin
  *My artistic accomplishments: Professional opera and jazz singer. Trained by an Uffizi restorer of great works in Italy. Trained ballet and modern dancer.
  *My atheltic training: Martial arts, biking, weight lifting, and long-distance running.
  *My greatest interest: the intersection of business, psychology, literature, philosophy, the arts, and religion.

These are a few facts that I thought we might share over emails. But that's OK. As I have said, my life is an open book, including my many business failures and ventures. But I'm on a great track now...a fast track! Can you please share with us little something about you beginning with your given name? Can you share a little something about your family?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 11:49 AM

"Must be really tough for you on this thread isn't it?"

Malcolm...Once again...you think too highly of yourself, dear one. This thread has been in many ways quite laughable for me. But when I think of you, I must admit to being saddened, although there is hope. There is ALWAYS hope.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 12:51 PM

What's to come is lengthy indeed and the words are not mine. But, hey, it's Saturday. Do read on; this is a beautiful story of hope that I'm sure many of you already know. Bill Moyers, in fact, did a special entitled "Amazing Grace." Grace is truly amazing!

Amazing Grace:
The Story of John Newton
by Al Rogers

(This article is reprinted from the July-August 1996 issue of “Away Here in Texas”.)

John Newton 1725-1807
“Amazing grace, how sweet the sound...” So begins one of the most beloved hymns of all times, a staple in the hymnals of many denominations, New Britain or “45 on the top” in Sacred Harp. The author of the words was John Newton, the self-proclaimed wretch who once was lost but then was found, saved by amazing grace.

Newton was born in London July 24, 1725, the son of a commander of a merchant ship which sailed the Mediterranean. When John was eleven, he went to sea with his father and made six voyages with him before the elder Newton retired. In 1744 John was impressed into service on a man-of-war, the H. M. S. Harwich. Finding conditions on board intolerable, he deserted but was soon recaptured and publicly flogged and demoted from midshipman to common seaman.

Finally at his own request he was exchanged into service on a slave ship, which took him to the coast of Sierra Leone. He then became the servant of a slave trader and was brutally abused. Early in 1748 he was rescued by a sea captain who had known John's father. John Newton ultimately became captain of his own ship, one which plied the slave trade.

Although he had had some early religious instruction from his mother, who had died when he was a child, he had long since given up any religious convictions. However, on a homeward voyage, while he was attempting to steer the ship through a violent storm, he experienced what he was to refer to later as his “great deliverance.” He recorded in his journal that when all seemed lost and the ship would surely sink, he exclaimed, “Lord, have mercy upon us.” Later in his cabin he reflected on what he had said and began to believe that God had addressed him through the storm and that grace had begun to work for him.

For the rest of his life he observed the anniversary of May 10, 1748 as the day of his conversion, a day of humiliation in which he subjected his will to a higher power. “Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares, I have already come; ’tis grace has bro’t me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home.” He continued in the slave trade for a time after his conversion; however, he saw to it that the slaves under his care were treated humanely.

In 1750 he married Mary Catlett, with whom he had been in love for many years. By 1755, after a serious illness, he had given up seafaring forever. During his days as a sailor he had begun to educate himself, teaching himself Latin, among other subjects. From 1755 to 1760 Newton was surveyor of tides at Liverpool, where he came to know George Whitefield, deacon in the Church of England, evangelistic preacher, and leader of the Calvinistic Methodist Church. Newton became Whitefield’s enthusiastic disciple. During this period Newton also met and came to admire John Wesley, founder of Methodism. Newton’s self-education continued, and he learned Greek and Hebrew.

He decided to become a minister and applied to the Archbishop of York for ordination. The Archbishop refused his request, but Newton persisted in his goal, and he was subsequently ordained by the Bishop of Lincoln and accepted the curacy of Olney, Buckinghamshire. Newton’s church became so crowded during services that it had to be enlarged. He preached not only in Olney but in other parts of the country. In 1767 the poet William Cowper settled at Olney, and he and Newton became friends.

Cowper helped Newton with his religious services and on his tours to other places. They held not only a regular weekly church service but also began a series of weekly prayer meetings, for which their goal was to write a new hymn for each one. They collaborated on several editions of Olney Hymns, which achieved lasting popularity. The first edition, published in 1779, contained 68 pieces by Cowper and 280 by Newton.

Among Newton’s contributions which are still loved and sung today are “How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds” and ”Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken,” as well as “Amazing Grace.” Composed probably between 1760 and 1770 in Olney, ”Amazing Grace” was possibly one of the hymns written for a weekly service. Through the years other writers have composed additional verses to the hymn which came to be known as “Amazing Grace” (it was not thus entitled in Olney Hymns), and possibly verses from other Newton hymns have been added. However, these are the six stanzas that appeared, with minor spelling variations, in both the first edition in 1779 and the 1808 edition, the one nearest the date of Newton’s death. It appeared under the heading Faith’s Review and Expectation, along with a reference to First Chronicles, chapter 17, verses 16 and 17 [see the below for this Scripture – Graham Pockett].

Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

The origin of the melody is unknown. Most hymnals attribute it to an early American folk melody. The Bill Moyers special on “Amazing Grace” speculated that it may have originated as the tune of a song the slaves sang.
Newton was not only a prolific hymn writer but also kept extensive journals and wrote many letters. Historians accredit his journals and letters for much of what is known today about the eighteenth century slave trade. In Cardiphonia, or the Utterance of the Heart, a series of devotional letters, he aligned himself with the Evangelical revival, reflecting the sentiments of his friend John Wesley and Methodism.

In 1780 Newton left Olney to become rector of St. Mary Woolnoth, St. Mary Woolchurch, in London. There he drew large congregations and influenced many, among them William Wilberforce, who would one day become a leader in the campaign for the abolition of slavery. Newton continued to preach until the last year of life, although he was blind by that time. He died in London December 21, 1807. Infidel and libertine turned minister in the Church of England, he was secure in his faith that amazing grace would lead him home.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 2:42 PM

"Trained by an Uffizi restorer of great works in Italy."

Care to explain what you actually mean by this, because my bs meter just went off.

*My education: PhD level from highly respected universities.
You were admitted on the basis of your race. You would not have gotten in otherwise. we well know after the unv. michigan case just how much things were and are skewed.

"*My great grandparents lived during a time that they could have found them lynched for the slightest stare. "
Another silly fantasy. Most lynching 'victims' were white and it was usually frontier justice. you honestly think that whites are so crazed and violent that they would lynch someone for staring at them. With that judith, you have pulled the gloves off. Here we go:
blacks are statistically far more likely to rape and commit acts of violence than whites.
since south africa has been 'freed' from white rule, about 1/3 of all women can look 'forward' to being raped. The country is descending into chaos (as did formerly prosperous Rhodesia). In america blacks are about 200 times more likely to rape than whites and white on black rape is a statistical zero.

don't tell me its poverty. Poor chinese and poor indians come to this country and they don't rape at the rate blacks do...everywhere. in europe, here, in canada - where there has never been slavery. "mother africa" as you refer to it (Why not go back to mother? ) - at least subharan africa - has never been able to develop beyond the stone age - so blacks embrace fantasies that they rule Egypt and Carthage. (yeah Hannibal was black)

Your lovey-dovey story about gender and racial harmony is the sort of feel good nonsense i can read in the new york times every day. the macro, net effect of FORCED diversity and FORCED integration has been catastrophic.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 2:49 PM

"
The origin of the melody is unknown. Most hymnals attribute it to an early American folk melody. The Bill Moyers special on “Amazing Grace” speculated that it may have originated as the tune of a song the slaves sang."

Amazing Grace is based on an old scottish hymn -as are many of what were called negro spirtuals, that's not to say they didn't bring something to the spirtuals or make them their own, but Claiming Amazing's melody was originated by blacks is as foolish as saying Hannibal was black. If you ever have heard it on the bagpipes you can understand how and where it was developed.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 2:55 PM

"But I do so to show that we do think and prepare differently, whether in battle on the field or at the office. This could make all the difference in the world, especially in areas that have been predominately male-dominated. Maybe we would not be in the mess we are currently in Iraq on the battle field and off if there were women who were a part of the war room and battlefield"

If you knew anything about this subject you would know that israel and others have attempted it and it has MASSIVLEY FAILED. Of course, common sense would tell us that in the first place, but common sense goes out the window in when embrace egalitarian dogma.

We are in a mess in iraq because we went on an idealogical/egalitarian crusade to bring democracy on people that didn't want it, nor are suited for it. At least that was excuse.

Posted by malcolma_ at July 12, 2008 3:03 PM

Malcolm...my dear, "Winning" is indeed proving to be your strong suit. But can you please tell us a little about yourself? Your given name? Your family? Your profession? Your international travels?

Regarding your BS meter, it's obviously not self-directed. But no worries. dear one. You still wear "winning" well.

Do you love your mother?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 3:03 PM

"you honestly think that whites are so crazed and violent that they would lynch someone for staring at them."

Two words:

Emmett Till

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 3:07 PM

Oh, he just stared? and btw, blacks kill each other every day for wrong 'stares', in fact an excuse isn't even needed. Do you know who channon christopher was? Or Eve Carson? do you know how many thousands of white women have been raped and murdered in the post so called civil rights era?

"Blacks are just 13 percent of the population but they commit more than half the muggings and murders in the country. Hispanics commit violent crimes at about three times the white rate."

"Every year there are about 15,000 black-on-white rapes but fewer than 900 white-on-black rapes. There are more than 3,000 gang rapes of whites by blacks—but white-on-black gang rapes are so rare they do not even show up in the statistics."

side note: hispanics are counted as whites when they commit crimes but counted as hispanic when they are victims.

Proud of all 'mother africa' has given us.

You keep asking if I love my mother. Funny you should ask that. She was assaulted and mugged (fortunetly not raped) by blacks, as was my sisters.

You ask about my travels. Ever been to sweden or norway? The rape rate in oslo now suprasses new york...and you guessed it, 85% of those crimes are committed by black and other third world immigrants. Proud judith? Still want to harp about emmit til and keep playing the race card? I don't want to return to jim crow or any other fantasy you embrace. I do think it would have been better, for us at least, if we repatrioted blacks after the civil war but that's not possible now....but who knows, society can't keep going on like it is.

Yes, I do love my mother and sisters, and "my" country and "my" civilization and i see what "your" egalitarian nonsense is doing to it.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 3:35 PM

"
"Trained by an Uffizi restorer of great works in Italy.""
Yes, my BS meter is still ticking.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 3:36 PM

Assuming you have no reason to lie, I sincerely regret that your mother and sisters were raped. I don't ever remember hearing or even reading such a horrid story where all the women in a single family came to such misfortune. This is horrid indeed and you have my sincerest apologies. Blessings to all...

During my many extended stays in Italy, beginning with my study of Italian at the Dante Aligheri in Rome as a student, I came to know and love an extraordinary brilliant man, Alfonso Spadoni, the director of the famed Teatro della Pergola in Florence. The summer we first met he allowed me to sit in Verdi's chair and be face to face, unveiled, with original scores of his great operas. I love him dearly for his brilliance, passion and compassion. I literally sat at his feet for endless hours, soaking up so much in about history, art, music and politics. He had a passion for politics. In fact, he was passionate...period!

Alfonso introduced me around everywhere. I attended the operas with him, went to parliament regularly as guests of his friends, and I also got to study Italian art and architecture with some of his friends, having unlimited access to the Uffizi for both study and great pleasure whenever my friends and I visited. I stayed in the most extraordinary villas as a guest of my dear friend. It was a beautiful time.

Regarding your BS detector, is it turned inwardly yet? I will not give you a ticking meter, as my request will undoubtedly take much longer. Some people never turn that light inwardly, but forever look outwardly. But you can do it!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 4:36 PM

By the way, I did two degrees at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and I was not admitted because of my race. In case you're wondering, I did very well, scholastically and culturally, competing with the best of them, leading the pact.

By the time I did my PhD studies, I had received all A's with the exception of one B+, spoke and chaired at an International philosphical conference on Jean Paul Sartre, and served as reader and editor of two best sellers, written by two highly respected scholars and business persons. The authors spoke kindly of my contributions in their acknowledgements.

But enough, already, about, me. Please continue to tell us more about you. Your education? Your family's education? Where did you grow up? You profession? Do you have children? Little girls, perhaps?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 4:53 PM

Sorry Judith, I'm better than you. I'm the Pope.

Posted by the Pope at July 12, 2008 4:53 PM

Great response! I love the pope! Brilliant man!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 4:59 PM

they were not raped, please read more carefully. she was assaulted and mugged. my sisters were also assaulted all on separate occasions. It happens when you live by large numbers of blacks, as you may or may not know. It especially happens in schools were forced integration happens.

Yes, my bs meter is on and accurate. you said you were: ""Trained by an Uffizi restorer of great works in Italy."" having 'access' to the Uffizi can be got with a ticket and an appointment will get you into any museum's library. what do you mean by 'studying' the 'great works' with some of his friends? He told you some anecdote that can be had in any tour guide?

Yours posts reek of vapid materialism -referring to a gold plated this or that note book, thinking tom peters! is great because he's popular, and you seem obsessed with showing off your status by material attainments - thats why i knew this statement was crap - you want the status of having been 'trained' by someone who restored 'great works' at the Uffizzi but don't really care about the essence of the works you're referring to in that rather silly statement. Whatever you were trying to imply - studying art restoration, or representational art, takes extraordinary commitment, knowledge and work. No one who judges people by their popularity or monetary success would a. go into that b. obtain any knowledge or understanding, since they would always be concentrating on the wrong things. And of course, you knew this but the best ateliers are not in florence, and the ones there are not affiliated with the Uffizzi . You don't want to do the work or have the understanding but you want the status of saying "i trained with a restorer of great works from the uffzi" . its about as shallow as saying that " I trained with a bolshio ballet master at Kennedy center" to describe talking with ballet dancer during a gala party.

You go on and on about villas, and status symbols.
your trip to italy sounds like a bad cliche from a harlequin romance.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 5:00 PM

"By the way, I did two degrees at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and I was not admitted because of my race. "

Funniest thing you posted on this thread. How fitting you actually attended one of the worst affirmative action uni's in the country

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 5:01 PM

No, Malcolm, I actually studied art, architecture too, in Florence, with one of the best restorers of art, sitting nearby as he worked, taking oodles of notes as he spoke. I'd love to share my 6 notebooks. Do you like art?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 5:12 PM

Malcolm...I still know very little about you, save what is apparent from your comments here. They're still speaking volumes. But I do not even know your given name. Will you answer any of my other questions? I'm going have to be going shortly; I'm meeting friends for dinner who only eat fried chicken, collard greens and cornbread, carry wads of bills, wear big hoop gold earrings, sport only french braids, have gold teeth, wear only rocawear, and drive stylized suburbans that kick out rap music from miles away with hubs that spin. The chicken and music are calling, so I've gotta go. Until later...perhaps...peace out...

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 5:31 PM

" I actually studied art, architecture too, in Florence, with one of the best restorers of art, sitting nearby as he worked, taking oodles of notes as he spoke. I'd love to share my 6 notebooks. Do you like art?"

Even if this where true you claimed to have 'trained with' him- sitting by , taking notes and talking while he worked (as unlikely as talking with a surgeon while he worked ) is not 'training' with.

In any event, nothing you have said indicates, in the least, that you know anything relevant about 'art' or architecture or understand it in any meaningful way.

Funny you should flaunt florence as a status symbol - the epitome of high southern renaissance art - gee how did it happen? They were homogeneous! the didn't celebrate diversity! there were no blacks! How is it our 'diverse society today and the 'diverse' empires of the middle east couldn't match them. Gee how did Athens do it?! Or Golden Age spain - they actually de-diversitied themselves!? Wonder if Tom Peters! has an explanation for that.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 6:31 PM

Malcolm, I'm now sitting at a soul food restaurant with my black only friends (they're the only kind I have. why would I have any others?) and we're having a hell of a good time! We each have our Blackberrys out and we're laughing HYSTERICALLY at your comments. It's too bad that we can't actually see your face. We've joked about what you might look like. But I'll settle for your name. A black male friend joins in the laughter. But he also wants to know where you live? He'd like to come over for a visit. Can he?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 7:25 PM

Hey, Malcolm, Before we get to stuffing our faces, my black buddies wanted me to send you this message: "You're a 'winner,' dude!" (Did they say dude?) Peace out!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 7:50 PM

What so funny?
Malcolm's line of thinking is not unique.
Snap on Rush Limbaugh during the week and do a little reading between the lines.
Rush has a big enough audience so he will get 400 million dollars over the next 10 years for
spewing out hate.

Posted by x at July 12, 2008 8:04 PM

X: facts are hate? I'll tell you what's hate: rap lyrics, spike lee, jesse jackson, obama belonging to an overtly racist church for over 20 years (and then claiming he never knew reverend wright was like that) Yes x, always always when you can't refute and argument, accuse the other of hate or racism. it works.

Judith: I don't doubt you're laughing. yes ,blacks would think its funny that they are 200 times more likely to commit rape, that rhodesia was the bread basket of africa and black ran zimbawae can't feed itself, or that one third of all women in south africa can expect to be raped, or that my mother and sisters were assaulted by blacks. You know what i find funny? The average iq of black americans. 85. One standard deviation below whites.

LOVE IT how you have tried to divert the conversation, after I demonstrated you really don't know much about art, at all, beyond status. And believe me judith you DON'T want to post anymore claims flaunting your art 'knowledge' because I will make you look very very silly.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 8:33 PM

During this brief time out I would like to extend my thanks to Malcolm. As this has taken place over the past what, week now?...you have made me realize two very important things. First, I could really give less than a rat's behind about what you say, simply because contradicts what I have seen and experienced in my life....no disrespect intended. It does however make me feel terrific to read it. Democracy works...you have a forum to speak your mind and others to reply. I spent 24 years in the Air Force 1973-1997 and it was during this period that many of the mandates that prevented women from serving in many career fields were relaxed. Standard's weren't lowered...it was simply a case otherwise qualified applicants now being eligible to work in areas they were previously banned from doing because of their gender. HHHMMMM....do we see a linkage here? I watched the junior enlisted women that I lead absolutely change the dynamic of our work center. Focused, knowledgeable, competitive and with a chip on their shoulder attitude that they would work harder, smarter, longer to prove they belonged. I saw and worked with women junior officers who did the same and had the additional obstacle of cracking the "pilots rule" mentality...again standards not lowered...just getting an opportunity previously denied by mandate. At Travis Air Force Base in the 1984-1986 period I stood beside a runway and looked at a C5 aircraft sitting perfectly on the centerline of the runway. The problem...the all male and relatively senior crew simply forgot to lower the landing gear...even though they confirmed it was down and locked at least twice in standard communications with the tower. At the same time there was a C-141 pilot and later instructor pilot I came to know through training and staff meetings. Again, same focus, attitude, constantly tested...last time I heard mention of her was during STS-114...the first Space Shuttle flight after the Columbia disaster...when she became the first woman to COMMAND a Space Shuttle Mission...her fourth mission as an astronaut. The second thanks is for confirming what I knew,,,stupid isn't race or gender specific..it just is. Success and excellence isn't gender or race specific...it just sometimes needs to be given an opportunity it was denied by law or mandate. Colonel Collins, Lt General Dunwoody, and one Ms. Judith Ellis might have needed some legislative assistance to get in the door but once they had the opportunity I'm thinking it was a matter of hard work, focus, sacrifice among other things they enabled them to achieve and excel. Again, thanks...validation is a marvelous thing!

Posted by Dave Wheeler at July 12, 2008 8:58 PM

Malcolm...I've eaten my fried chicken dinner with black eyes peas, rice and okra. Wasn't feeling the mac and cheese and collards tonight. But the website is still up on my Blackberry. (Have you eaten already? I'm done.) Before heading to the jazz club, my black buddies asked if you will ever get to my questions. Will you? Would you like the list, yet a third time? But really, the list really isn't important. You are quite obvious.

x...You really can't get angry at the likes of Malcolm. Why? Although they are indeed "winners," they exist as irritants. But they can only irritate if allowed. They can't degrade without our allowance. Here's a favorite quote by Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Malcolm and the likes of him will never have our consent.

So, x, this is one of the reasons we laugh. Malcolm is trying so very hard to degrade but without any success. His face remains on the floor; his weakness is increasingly evident. Thank you for your words.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 9:04 PM

Dave, I thank you for such beautiful words...indeed. I thank you for sharing your wonderful story. There is a beauty about first hand experiences that can't be denied. I will dedicate a song to you this evening at the jazz club, and my friends and I will raise our glasses to you for the beauty spoken here. Truth is beautiful. Have a great evening, Dave. Tonight promises to be a great one, having begun with a great meal and the company of great friends.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 9:22 PM

Judith, accusing people of being socially maladjusted are attempts to 'degrade' i have simply pointed out your attempts to self aggrandize "trained with Uffizzi restorer of great works" or silly statements such as 'only cowards post anonymously' or that the popularity of someone is a measure of their success or the worth of their ideas.

Lastly, I posted sad, disturbing facts about the behavior patterns of blacks- behavior that pops up consistently across continents and cultures. Pointing out problems is not hate- if we don't realistically face them we can't deal with them.

Dave: Sorry OTC and other standards - both physical and mental - were lowered for women (and minorities). They are lowered by the ciruclar logic of egalitarian thinking - if women score lower, than the test must be bias.

Women and minorities were given preferential treatment. You used the example of the space shuttle. Dave- do you honestly believe that each color coded crew (one woman one black, white guys to actually fly it) comes about because the best people were chosen and poof! it just happens there are always women and minorities on each mission? and is it any accident that NASA has become, well, pathetic?

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 9:29 PM

Judith, I notice you have avoided the irrefutable statistics about black behavior patterns, in favor of feel good stories. Not surprising.

I notice you have avoided the fact that Israel and other countries tried to integrate women in combat, found it a failure and abandoned it.

Then again, I notice you lack the common sense to understand why its a bad idea in the first place.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 9:33 PM

Malcolm...good night and good luck.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 9:35 PM

""might have needed some legislative assistance to get in the door but once they had the opportunity "

no dave, standards were lowered for them and they were given preferential treatment - when you have to deliberately avoid saying that its usually an indicator that you yourself know its wrong.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 12, 2008 9:40 PM

In the event I didn't deliberately avoid saying something because I don't believe it to be true...thank you for correcting me and telling me what I think. Again, no disrespect intended...we simply disagree.

Posted by Dave Wheeler at July 12, 2008 11:32 PM

Judith, do you really believe
"Malcolm and the likes of him will never have our consent."

They have had 'our' consent in the past. What do you think was the logic behind the justification of slavery? And I'm not angry, I'm just pointing out that its nothing to laugh at.

Posted by x at July 13, 2008 8:40 AM

x, I'm sorry. I was being race specific here and in particular the consent of the African American community and my non African American friends with whom I had a great evening last night. My non African American friends friends who were with us last night, however, struggled to find the humor in it. But by the time we arrived at the jazz club, joviality was truly embraced by all. But I am most delighted, nevertheless, x, that you think of "me" as a part of the we. I'd like to also say that specificities are OK; we are not a homogeneous country and certainly not a homogeneous world. Respect for differences is key, not disavowing that differences exist. They do.

When the atrocities of such things as slavery have been spoken of by your ancestors and passed down for centuries and when you have read about the history of so many holocausts and injustices in the world, my thought is for the people to whom such atrocities happen, for those people in leadership who gave/give twisted logic for such atrocities. Never believe a lie, even if there is nothing that can be done about it at any given moment. Fight back mentally; NEVER consent that "we" are the lesser and laugh.

I, too, sing America. I am the darker brother.
They send me to eat in the kitchen when company comes.
But I laugh and eat well and grow strong.

Tomorrow, I'll sit at the table when company comes.
Nobody will dare say to me eat in the kitchen then.
Besides, they'll see how beautiful I am and be ashamed.

-- Langston Hughes

So, x, we laugh knowing full well that in spite of the burning of our bodies over Sunday brunch and the Strange Fruit which hung both South and North everyday of the week, we survived and continue to thrive. America would not be America without the contributions of African Americans then and now. (That is not to diminish the contributions of so many others in ANY way.) African Americans are survivers and thrivers who have fought for this country, even when this country did not acknowledge them, since its inception. God bless America! We deeply love her! This love, however, does not entail the acceptance of every policy and the views of every politican.

x, no worries. I am not taking your words disrespectfully in the very least. Conversely, I am appreciatve of them. Best...

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 13, 2008 11:02 AM

X, are you aware that millions of whites were enslaved by North Africans? Oh, no, you weren't? Not surprised. What about the Muslim, Turkic and Mongol invasions into white lands (spain, france, sicily, east europe, what is now turkey? Oh that's different? Oh you didn't know? Why am I not surprised.

What about the black on white crime rate that persists to this day, particularly rape - which has nothing to do with poverty - is that whitey's fault too?

I am sorry you ancestors were enslaved, you of course know that other blacks enslaved them...but we did provide Liberia for you and you're welcome to go back to mother africa. If not, kindly stop bitching about your past wrongs (many whites came here as indentured servants for example) , grow up, and stop race hustling and playing the race card and face the problems in your community. In short, stop blaming whitey.

Judith, I am now really done with this thread and you - I will leave you with this:

You have constantly harped on about how cultured and sophisticated you are. You know doubt are aware of the inscription that was said to have been written on the temple at delphi: Know Thyself.

Perhaps the most humorous of your claims is this:
"By the way, I did two degrees at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and I was not admitted because of my race. "

here is where you lost whatever credibility you may have had. If you have honestly convinced yourself of this then, I am sorry you are deceiving yourself. I respect Colin Powel for at least being able to admit he benefited from Affirmative action - your ego is so frail you can't even admit this.

Besides your constant playing of the race card and consistent inability to read my posts (you said my mother was raped when I clearly said she was not, you accused me saying that had delusions of grandeur when I pointed out the silliness of your judgments of both anonymous posting and what constitutes success) - this is probably due to a lack of critical thinking skills - a result of be coddled as most minorities are - this of course is not unique to minorities, its a small part of the failed 'self esteem ' egalitarian nature of our educations system - everyone's above average!

where you really lost me, however, is your self aggrandizing. You claimed to have 'trained' in ballet and some form of art restoration - I am able to tell you have no real appreciation for the arts beyond superficial status seeking by the lack of respect you displayed for both of these disciplines, and by your constant harping about how many degrees i had - and constantly telling us how many you had - no one really educated would ever do such a thing (and by the way womyns studies is about as worthy a 'degree' as astrology)

no one who really appreciated the discipline, skill and dedication it takes to be a ballet dancer, fine artist (I am not talking about abstract crap) or work in art restoration would ever judge people on how popular they were, the degrees they had (as you obviously do NOT know, most fine artists don't get them or complete the bulk of their training in non degree ateliers) or how much money they made. Nor would anyone make such claims as to have 'trained as' its as silly and pretentious as saying I 'trained as a mathematician' because I took calculus.

You tried to hang these on your personality as you would an expensive hand bag, and, frankly it doesn't make you pretty.

Lastly, you have judged me by not only asking these things (degrees, popularity) but also, strangely, assumed that my views some, make it impossible for me to be, say an artist or writer. You are, obviously, completely unaware of the views of quite a few artists and writers (and historians, and any number of disciplines - disciplines judith, not feel-good afro-american 'studies').

Judith, please read this CAREFULLY before responding, if you want to avoid making a fool of yourself, again.

With that, I will leave you and TomPeters!

So post away X and Judith, NO ONE will challenge your views now.

Posted by malcolm_ at July 13, 2008 11:58 AM

Malcolm...good night and good luck.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 13, 2008 12:14 PM

I was wrong. What Malcolm believes is funny.

Posted by x at July 13, 2008 2:25 PM

In fact, x, hysterically funny! Best!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 13, 2008 2:41 PM