Comments

Many thanks, TP, for the forum. I am also grateful for freedoms granted.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 12, 2008 2:53 PM

An Oakland A's fan...Outstanding! Growing up in and around the Bay Area, it really didn't get much better than being an A's and Raiders fan from 1968 through even today. A diverse and blue collar town united behind the goal of beating down the folks on the other side of the Bay...makes one homesick for sure!

Posted by Dave Wheeler at July 12, 2008 3:41 PM

Here in England – you might guess - the temperature is nowhere near triple figures. Today I watched my beloved Manchester United play their first pre-season friendly and United won 2-0. As the late great Bill Shankly once famously said ‘Football is not a matter of life and death, it is far more important than that’ – Find some shade and enjoy it Tom …. I find a bottle of Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon, like the one my wife and I are currently enjoying, helps bring down the temperature :- )

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 12, 2008 4:18 PM

Here in Australia - the temperature hovered around the 9-10 Celsius or 48.2 Fahrenheit... while in the Australian Football League (www.afl.com.au) (NOT rugby)... my team Collingwood (The Magpies) defeated Adelaide (The Crows) in a convincing 106 to 74 points... supporters out in open stands on cold, windy and mostly wet afternoon....

& Trevor: I don't recall who the Australian poet or writer was that stated that you're tagged with a football team at birth and you stay with that team until your death... In our code, there are rarely any switchers after the age of 10 - who ever you picked you stay with.

Here in OzTralia - once winter comes around - there is nothing more important than Aussie Rules Footy !!

Posted by Salvo at July 12, 2008 8:26 PM

Personally, recent events have re-affirmed my view that the comments are often not worth the bother of reading - and that adding to them is rarely worthwhile, and perhaps counterproductive.

Maybe someone will take exception too this too. SFW, bring it on... and play amongst yourselves.

Posted by g at July 13, 2008 2:47 AM

g – I 'sort of' agree with you but I love how TP ‘allows’ the discussion to happen. There is a line that may be crossed at some point but it has looked just about ok to me so far – but only just.

I am now a spectator having made my point early on and bailed out. Sometimes one just knows when whatever one says it will not influence the view of another.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 13, 2008 3:34 AM

But it seems that you hve read the comments, nonetheless, g. I guess there is something to be said for that. What in particular for you? I don't know. Be well...

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 13, 2008 3:53 AM

Re freedoms, I think Tom has just deftly made it very clear what he considers "allowable" and where he sees the line being drawn. Especially on the gotcha syndrome. We've been told.

Regards from 39 degree Celsius Damascus.

Posted by Rob at July 13, 2008 6:36 AM

TP, as it seems to me, said what he thinks...best.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 13, 2008 6:54 AM

Hi Salvo – I like it. I started supporting my beloved Manchester United at age 11 in 1963. Forty five years later they are still in my blood and will be with me until I die. Man United is part of my DNA now. Real sports fans as you well know will never desert their team. I supported Man United through the ‘thin times’ for 20 years just as passionately as I support them now they are the most successful team in the word and certainly the most popular. Long live Manchester United and in your case long live Collingwood. Good luck my friend.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 13, 2008 10:34 AM

Salvo, as a Geelong supporter (now) I have to disagree with the tag at 10, I disliked Aussie rules until we moved to Geelong (I was 30 something), then as a secondary school teacher I was out of sorts with the students immediately when they found I didn't really have a team to support... the blank stares of disbelief I will never forget! So I quickly adopted the local team...

The team has had mixed fortunes but winning the premiership flag last year was brilliant and the winning streak continues this year!

In business terms it's interesting that the team has done a back flip from losing and dragging their heels to a full on "team", fully focussed, very flexible and the attitude of real winners.

Of course there was intervention by a Business consultant (not me alas) but a darn fine fella whose results speak louder than the consultants name... (brand who?) :) "Carna Cat's!"

Posted by steve Gray at July 13, 2008 6:10 PM

... And I had to see my beloved Cubbies fall short, with too few hits, today in the heat of a beautiful day at Wrigley Field. Even with the wind blowing out towards the corner of Waveland and Sheffield ... (BTW, none of the fans showed any anger, even at the gloating Giants fans in our midst)

Posted by Steve Yastrow at July 13, 2008 7:50 PM

Well... Steve... did I miss something??
Who was the consultant??

Brand Tom?? Maybe not - but who??

Generally - you're tagged at a young age with a team and that's it...

***BRAND LOYALTY*** at it's finest...

In your case - well - you were a late entrant in the "supporter" game!!
In sport, it's a rare thing to find switchers...

Now if we could harness that same loyalty for our business and products... whoa!!

& Trevor... in UK soccer - I too have followed MU and around the age of 10. I was strongly influenced - by some 70's UK TV show - the name of which is long forgotten - the character was a mad MU supporter.

However, watching Patrick Steward (Picard from Star Trek) in the 1997 movie "Masterminds" - rip open his shirt to reveal a MU jersey - and loudly proclaim MU, MU, MU while punching a fist in the air - just makes me wonder how daft UK MU fans are !!!

Team supporters:
Dedication, devotion, life long loyalty...
hmmm... most marriages don't last that long !!

Posted by Salvo at July 13, 2008 8:08 PM

Judith – I genuinely regret that email exchange was published by gulliver on this Blog. If the full email exchange was seen you will see that I spoke well of you and expressed my sympathy for the way you were being treated in the other recent long discussion. Unfortunately that does not appear and I feel bad about how the extract copied on to the Blog comes across!

I do have considerable respect for you and for your comments. I do not always agree with you - indeed we have disagreed publicly on this Blog. I do however wish to apologise for the fact this personal exchange between gulliver and I has appeared in this way.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 14, 2008 10:02 AM

dear community,

we have deleted three comments, one of which could be construed as a personal attack on one of our community. the other two were follow-ons to that comment. that we here at tompeters.com have to do such a thing is distressing. we are of the opinion that the community will act respectfully toward each other in this forum. sadly that was not the case. we do hope that, as tom mentioned in his post from saturday, that civility will once again rear its ever so dull head.

Posted by erik hansen at July 14, 2008 10:38 AM

Thanks erik, nicely done and put.

Posted by Rob at July 14, 2008 10:59 AM

Apology accepted. Be well, Trevor.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 14, 2008 11:50 AM

Trevor - that TP quote is great - and for the most part I agree. But there is another part of me that does not want to concede the ground - futile as it may be, I did not want to go quietly into that goodnight.

I remember when I was an undergraduate, we had this person who would appear on campus now and then and try to engage people with all kinds of racist/sexist/ (etc.) views. Now there was no way you would ever get the guy to back down on anything, mostly because he thrived on the spectacle he was making. He once mockingly sang "swing low" to a black man who was ticked off at what the guy was saying. But to just let the guy say all those hateful things and ignore it was very difficult, especially when the lack of response could be seen by others as acquiescence. Certainly it may remind them of a time (not that long ago) when those views not only were the norm but had huge personal effects, great human cost.

There is a point when we do have to back off and not bang our heads on that particular wall - but sometimes it is important to bang it a few times - not for the wall's sake - but for everybody else's.

Civility? Sure - but make no mistake - people take stuff personally when they feel strongly about an issue. Toleration is also exhausted when dealing with the intolerant. Being sensitive to this means that when someone becomes personally involved it is important to respect that.

One of the things that attracted me to this blog - and that includes Judith, gulliver, Trevor, Richard, Mark, and many other frequent posters - is that not everyone agrees. Who wants to hear a Tom Peters fanfare every time he says something? I am interested in exploring where these ideas go and how others see how the ideas fit into their lives. It is precisely the disagreements that help define the practical understanding of what some idea could mean to a manager, company, or even personally.

And hey, where are the cycling fans?? Richard, you cheering Cadel Evans on at the Tour de France? ;-)

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 14, 2008 1:54 PM

Thank you, Martin. I especially like your point about responding not for yourself alone but for those who may be reading. I think we should always be consious of others, and how what we do affects the whole. For me, it is always about the whole, even when I am doing things directly for my benefit. One day I will not be here. (The two deaths of my brothers ages 45 and 47 over the past 3 year and the death of my mother in between, made this point very clear.) My thought always is, what kind of personal legacy are you leaving behind?

You can often find me stepping up to the plate, not only because I'm passionate about a thing, but also because of the great many others who may be tuned in. (My question to myself always is, "why are you doing what you're doing? If the motive is not full of ego and excessive pride, I move forward.) This has been a trait of mine since childhood. But I am also aware that a wise man often eschews trouble, while a foolish one charges directly onward.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 14, 2008 2:38 PM

Cadel Evans lives not far from us in Geelong (Barwon Heads) nice little sea side "village". I guess he is one out of the box! Go Cadel go!

Posted by steve Gray at July 14, 2008 5:11 PM

Thanks Martin - I am clearly still learning about the right time to give up and the right time to carry on. I’m not sure there is a right and wrong answer - I suspect it is a very individual thing and a question of weighing up the (usually) non financial profit and loss scorecard.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 14, 2008 5:38 PM

Martin....

"One of the things that attracted me to this blog - and that includes Judith, gulliver, Trevor, Richard, Mark, and many other frequent posters - is that not everyone agrees. Who wants to hear a Tom Peters fanfare every time he says something? I am interested in exploring where these ideas go and how others see how the ideas fit into their lives. It is precisely the disagreements that help define the practical understanding of what some idea could mean to a manager, company, or even personally."

Martin I agree with you 100%... You and I have certainly had our disagreements here - often due to me trying, yeah I said trying, to stay relevant to the topic and doing it in a concise form... I am tired of the fawning on site so I am going to retire... I can hear the cheers...

I feel you are all my friends... I feel that I have a 'we' relationship with you all that has been important to me... I have loved being a part of this Chattering Cluster. I have often tried to form a Chattering Clan to prototype ideas - Martin I think you and I did that occassionaly - but Chattering Clans are quick to form and quick to implode and that is as it should be... I have never been drawn to become part of the Chattering Tribes on this site they are classic examples of purpose-driven entities with taboos, rituals, and rights of passage... The main thing is the Tribes here are constrained by the premise of this site - that is follow the leader Tom Peters... In the Tribes you have to be really into 'people-intense organisation' and that is not something I see as the future of the world - it is so C20th...

'C21st technologies' are changing the fundamentals, essence, nature, and culture of organisations in ways that are not yet clear... Perhaps that is why we are all so want to grasp hold so strongly to the 'thoughts and teachings' of a Tom Peters ...

Finally, Trevor Gay is my good friend and yet we have never met ALSO he has a passion for Simplicity whereas I have a passion for Complexity.... To take on Complexity one needs a 'requisite variety' (see Lord Ashby) of ideas...

If one is to gain that position one has to leave the comfort of mainstream thinking... Martin I am sure you have read the early works of Edward De Bono (especially his greatest works on lateral thinking where he often mentions the curse of 'group think').. I know I have to stay well clear of 'group think' if I want to formulate new positions and possibilities in my world - I believe that if we are to take a real shot at re-imagining our lives at work and at home we have to take on the conventional thinking around us... To do that is not easy... I tend to do it by going off the traditional track on my own where I often find I do not know what is fact and what is fiction... The facts are easily re-established by context, purpose, and communal needs... The fiction is sorted out by resorting to the works of great thinkers in past and contemporary settings that fit your context, frameworks for action, and execution tactics. Suddenly I find I have a moment when something I have 'invented in my own head' works..

Recently I have found the notion of Chattering Clusters works for me to explain a lot of current complexity and thus I have been trying to turn my explanations of it and more importantly my use of it into Pure Simplicity... You all have helped me to refine my notions of Chattering Cluster and for that I am truly thankful....

Martin.... I have just woken up (after a week of watching Le Tour into the early mornings I wimped out last night) to find out that Cadel is finally wearing the Yellow .... YES, YES, YES!!!

What a triumph! I have followed this kid all his career (world champion on the mountain bikes competed disappointingly at Sydney Olympics before turning professional on road) and I sensed that one day he would lead if not win the greatest bike race of all Le Tour... He has a long way to go to achieve that goal of course - he also has less than a great team around him surely nothing like what Lance Armstrong had around him- but this great little Australian athlete is on his way to what would be a major highlight in my sport watching career.... Thanks Martin for mentioning Cadel Evans - the world is about to find out all about him - and giving me a chance to say what a proud supporter I am of Cadel and indeed of all Australia's great sporting champions - we box way out of our weight division in world sport....

Seeya...

Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at July 14, 2008 5:41 PM

See, I knew there were a few Aussies that would be happy! Cadel is a great rider and a great person (unlike another little Aussie sprinter I might mention). It is nice to see him excel. I am still ticked of at ASO regarding Astana, but ...

Richard, I agree with you - and it is hard to stay concise! What is it that Descartes said in a letter: "I apologize for the length of this letter. I did not have time to write a shorter one". (my apologies too, I am going from memory - I am sure I butchered the quote)

My brand of eclectic thinking may have a way to go yet in maturity and depth, but I am enjoying the part I can play in the Tom Peters world. I grew into management indirectly, so I lack a lot of context that many have. I have a complex passion for simplicity (it takes me a long time to hone down thoughts to simple sayings), and I am getting over my simple passion for complexity (my atrophying Philosophy/theory side).

Cheers everyone!

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 14, 2008 6:18 PM

Oh, yeah - and on De Bono - I don't buy much of his theory, but his methods sure are interesting and thought provoking. He avoids the issue of what thinking is for (and why interest is so important). His critique of problem solving is also (ironically) somewhat problematic. ;-)

trying to be concise here...

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 14, 2008 6:33 PM

On the subject of baseball and Fenway Park, I am reminded that 52 years ago today, in one of the first baseball games I attended, I witnessed Mel Parnell's no hitter, saved by a Jimmy Piersall catch in right center field, directly in front of me. Bleacher seats were 75 cents then. Even more indicative of the 1950s: I was allowed to attend daytime baseball games by myself at the age of 9.

Posted by John O'Leary at July 14, 2008 8:40 PM

Here comes the howitzer.

For readers who joined late and may be wondering about the 'removed' remark, point yer fingers at me - I'm once-again the fly-in-the-ointment source of irritation.

I dared to criticize someone, for which I got moderated. Pull this one, too. It'll make the other to which you objected seem like high praise.

====

The Disney-ization of Tom Peters. Or... 'How I let them have my balls, and pocketed the checks & adulation anyway.'

We need a dose of authenticity round here. Honestly. We. Really. Do.

But instead, we have 'rules, guides, controls'.

'Do not break or throw your crayons, it will upset the other children. And woe beside anyone with the temerity to color outside the 'lines, what damn lines?'.

My point here is simple: many of the comments here have become a counter-productive fantasyland in which inhabitants suspend rational judgment in favor of play-along. Thunder-lizards? Pah! Don't make me laugh. Instead, we have a Waltons-type assembly akin to that 'teach the world to sing' '70s Coke ad... 'in perfect harmony'.

Let's frame that by clipping from Kawasaki's 'Rules for Revolutionaries' (a wonderful exercise in 'thinking differently and a should-read for anyone serious about their commercial enterprise) in which he relates the tale of how Universal Studios, when developing their Florida theme park, metaphorically spat on the rule book before tossing it from the roof and running over it with a Mack truck - and then burning that which remained.
-----
'It sure ain't Disney...' they came up with something genuinely better--'new and improved' in the finest sense.

They rejected the de-facto Disney rules: be nice, gentle and politically correct--'safe'. Deciding to embrace risk, they went after the kick-butt (in a great way) experience. Their rides feature blood, guts, flames and explosions. Customers regularly complain the fireballs are too hot. The shark in the Jaws ride comes so close to the boat that it'll break the arms of those dumb enough to put them in harm's way.

Everyday, people come back for more. It doesn't challenge the mouseholder, simply establishes a different standard--leaning toward those who don't want sanitized G-rated, fun-but-safe standards.

It captures that vital essence of the Revolutionary--those who genuinely want to (and work toward) bring about change--'think different to change the rules'.
-----

And therein lies the root of my point... 'You can't simply focus on the positive and ignore the other stuff'. Too often, too much of life has a 'three monkeys' (see, hear, and speak no evil) approach. And this place ain't that different.

'Come in,' she said. 'I'll give you shelter from the storm', I expected better here. Silly.
And damn me all to hell for having 'billion kilowatt dam, high hopes'. Oops, there goes another rubber tree plant. And an expectation dashed.

So let's have some punches-not-pulled work for grown ups... genuine say-what-you-mean and mean-what-you-say discourse.

You want respect? That you have to earn. It doesn't come just because you own the website.

Old-fart reminiscing, let's digress to an old client project... a similarly-minded ideal... a place for casual association and online conversation.

----
'There was music in the cafes at night and revolution in the air.'

We built a community which became 'real neat'.

Initially an email list (and plain text at that... all fourteen four modems and pentium twos), subsequently site-based forum... amid the interactive buzz of heady hours-long marathon flurry exchanges literally spanning the globe we set the wire alight.

We breathed the thing. Stayin' up after dark and doin' 'real work' by day to fill the hours 'til the night came again. 'Magic' was a term not-lightly coined. Nor bettered as a description.

Askabout this, whineabout that, talkabout... any damn thing you like really... just belong and be here... as friends... fumbling along together and trying desperately to make sense of it all in a world that threatened to move from embrace to engulf if you so much as dared be distracted.

Sure, it wasn't quite Big Wednesday surf stuff - but somehow it genuinely had 'the smell of warm places'. It was, to us, the morning glass--something for which we'd happily 'sleep in our cars'. Yeah, each morning we knew this would be 'a special day'.

Although just a web-based-thing... it was nonetheless real--and a vital source of energy to the most tired of us.

Lament. Laugh. Love. We lived in there. Sure, we never got much work done. And who cares? 'Work' was never the point. We came to... Dance. We fought, found fun. And forged amazing relationships. Emotion ran riot as folk paired-off... 'Lovers lane' was born. Hell, I literally found the love of my life and re-married through it.

Somebody suggested a Town Square (shades of Apple eWorld)... another 'placed a park bench'. 'Reach into the screen' close, we sat on the damn thing, hugging each other.

'As new and wonderful people showed up it got 'miles long now to get everyone a seat' and we budged-up-a-bit to make room for others... all virtually sat with takeout and laptops... busy writing messages and reaching out and around the world.

'I like new friends'... dreamers all, the sharing was incredible. Spinnin' and surgin' we swirled around, caught in the vortex.

Was it personal? Oh yes. And populated by some of the most cynical commercially hard-edged people you could never wish to meet... all allowing the child within free rein and reveling in the delight of what 'they said could never be' and thus supporting the suggestion that often 'the most seemingly inappropriate is really the most fitting'.

Sure, it could have been done in similar-and-different ways. Something tighter. More structured. That wasn't the point.

Instead... we chose a simple, pressure-free 'come as you are and if you wish' approach. We ran single daily starter posts, to which individual contributors added to the whole or dove off-site into personal sidebars.

'Doing business' weblogs abound. Dime-a-dozen-dozen. And most of 'em have confederacy-of-dunces sing-alongs from the fan-boys-and-girls... usually friendly exchange, sometimes genuine discussion.

Neither is enough for me. I'm perhaps Grail-searching for something which'll pass the test I laid down above--and about which I can spin stuff like 'Show me somewhere with the vibe of this place--the breathless intimacy... that's my angle. It can be very special here. Cherish. And please contribute.'

So yeah... 'Informed opinion, misplaced speculation and biased rant on life... the universe... everything really. Sometimes commerce. Join in!' ...a free-wheeling, stone-rolling, moss-gathering, thoroughly informal and sometimes barely-even-recognizable... 'thing'.

Am I serious?
Ab-so-lutely. Right on.
----

So then, that's a taste of what you could have had. And didn't.

Because instead, you checked the 'moderate' (as in 'below excellent' and 'control') options.

Whatever.

And in focusing this on the original source of my now-nuked comment (but I better not mention the name or someone will get all highbrow-holy on me... again).

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the ****in' kitchen. And when you're here, shutup a bit and listen... instead of aiming for a 'one post from others, three from me' ratio comprising attaboy vapid one-liners or personalized slants on how it ain't all working out hunky dory for you.

'When you point your finger cos your plan fell through, you got three more fingers pointing back at you'... except they don't. Instead, we indulge, we ignore, we do almost everything but give you 'the reality pill'. Recently, one kind chap even tried to help you with peaceful, educated and patient reasoning. He soon got blown-off.

So to the moderators who pulled me, so's not to offend... 'Enjoy your average day.' [http://glvr.com/temp/peters/1/]

Rock on. And roll a bit to. Life's easier when you take the pole out of your ass.

As Hunter would perhaps have said, 'My friends, I offer a hearty f*ck you.'

Posted by g at July 14, 2008 10:01 PM

gulliver.....

Now that is a leadership model... It is the one I thought was in Tom Peters' DNA...

Fortunately I have done some time in those spaces & places in my life - I miss them... I want more of those experiences in my future....

Stay well and continue to have real fun in your life mate....

Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at July 14, 2008 11:24 PM

I like authenticity too, and would welcome a bit less of the cosy off-topic "inner circle" discourse. However, for this occasional participant at least, authenticity is not another name for, or excuse for, discourtesy or lack of respect. There's critique (welcome), and then there's personal attack (unwelcome, and what happened this time). We can be honest and open without being rude or getting personal or ganging up. So I repeat my thanks to erik for pulling the posts, not because they somehow despoiled the "holy ground of TP", but because they made this place feel like the dinner table of an unpleasantly petty, snide, squabbling, scab-picking family. It wasn't about a pursuit of truth, it wasn't about the subject, it was about scoring points and having the last word, with everyone feeling they have right on their side. In other words, not a great place for anyone else to visit, regardless of whose name is on the masthead. This is a public forum. So let us by all means be direct, controversial and hard-hitting, let's not pull punches, dammit let's even colour outside the lines, but let's keep the punches and crayons above the belt, and let's respect the opponent, if indeed that's how we see each other.

There are no "rules, guides, controls" here - except when a fairly bloody obvious line gets crossed. The line, as far as I can see, is (or should be) defined by our collective common sense, maturity, humanity and respect. That's the model here, free as you want it to be, no rules, but be prepared to take responsbility for making this place somewhere others want to visit as well as yourself. That's my take on the TP DNA. And my wish for this Chattering Cluster (or is this a Clan, Richard?).

Posted by Rob at July 15, 2008 1:24 AM

Rob ....

I did not see the posts that were pulled by Erik so I have no idea of the content, intent, etc of them... I do not know who said or who did what and I guess I do not want to know...

I admire the transparency of this site... I noted Tom's comments about the need for transparency in a recent post.. I agree that transparency is vital... Transparency usually comes with accountability and equity for me.. Be transparent, be fully accountable for whatever you say or do, and be equitable in the treatment of all others... If you can follow those rules (sometimes it is a struggle for all of us) then there should never be a need to 'pull' stuff off a Web 3.0 social networking forum...

One thing I take to every meeting I attend is the 'hard won knowing' that you can demand people be accountable - regrettably you can not demand that they be responsible (being responsible is an individual decision for each and everyone of us!)

Given Tom Peters' DNA (as I know and love it) this forum should always be a Chattering Clan - so yes it is a clan, Rob.... That is it should form and implode quickly as the need arises to pursue the new, brave, and interesting ideas around us..

Seeya

Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at July 15, 2008 2:23 AM

Let's revisit and clip from those 'groundrules'.

-----
1 No personal attacks, please. Disagree with ideas, but don't attack people.

2 Please keep the foul language to a minimum. Damn is okay. If you must be more graphic than that, please make liberal use of asterisks.

3 Please refrain from going on at length. Succinct is a good word to keep in mind.

4 Please don't cut and paste posts from your or someone else's site into our comments. If you feel others would like to read something you've posted/read elsewhere, please link to it.

5 We will edit out comments that run afoul of these rules, though we'll let you know by email if you've done us the courtesy of leaving a valid email address. If you prefer to keep your email address private, and we support your right to do so, then, sorry, you'll be edited without notice.

-----

As the transgressor...

1 I spoke truth. A law court defence on libel/slander, what's so asterisk-ing special about this place that it should consider that shouldn't apply?

3 Hell, we're all screwed, then.

4 Redux.

5 I didn't get my mail from you. I'm gutted. Boo-hoo. Sob. Weep. Thing is though, that's a double-standard - if you say you'll do something, do it.

Who cares? Who dares?

Posted by g at July 15, 2008 3:14 AM

g, you almost seem to be auditioning for a spot on the TV show the Office.

Posted by x at July 15, 2008 7:51 AM

I've been away.

And it seems like I missed something!(understatement?)

ps I would have responded earlier but it took me 3 days to catch up on the comments above...

Posted by Ian Sanders at July 15, 2008 8:04 AM

Tom said, "...suffering from ... accompanying Houstonian humidity. That is, there are those who are cross..."

Just want you to know that we Houstonians aren't mad at anyone. Yeah, we've got the opressive humidity, alright, but we're too busy making money and sending the rest of you oil and gasoline to let something like the weather bother us! Y'all come see us...!

David in balmy Houston.

Posted by David at July 15, 2008 9:01 AM

David, no aspersion aimed at Houston. (There I go being wussy again.) I grew up in Annapolis Maryland where humidity-are-us--I do think unremitting high humiity sucks, I must admit.

Staying wussy, I agree with Rob's 124AM post.

To my mind, we have had some pretty pointed debates over ideas, and this blog is supposedly 99% about ideas regarding the effectiveness of organizations, and career life.

When it comes to the main purpose of the blog, I 100.00% support rude as long as it's not personal. I make a living doing rude, though I do subscribe (also 100%) to the notion that if you do rude you've "gotta make 'em laugh" first.

My problem with this thread was that I couldn't figure out the point beyond bitter personal generic exchanges, with narry an idea, except, I guess, civility, in sight.

Am I missing something?

Posted by tom peters at July 15, 2008 9:42 AM

Funny thing, my dear wife is on my case continually to make more political remarks at the blog. I just said, this past weekend, to her and some friends when discussing this topic, "Well, I've observed and learned that you've got to make a clear choice--political or not political. My experience is that when you "go political," a worthy aim indeed, then the comments, often numbering in the hundreds, are simply childish displays of people, to be sure often very clever and witty poeople, throwing shit at each other--fine enough but not what we're trying to do at tp.com."

Posted by tom peters at July 15, 2008 9:48 AM

" ... feel like the dinner table of an unpleasantly petty, snide, squabbling, scab-picking family."

Rob, worthy of a good, in fact very good, novel!

Posted by tom peters at July 15, 2008 9:52 AM

Richard, you said-

"In the Tribes you have to be really into 'people-intense organisation' and that is not something I see as the future of the world - it is so C20th... "

and

"'C21st technologies' are changing the fundamentals, essence, nature, and culture of organisations in ways that are not yet clear..."

I don't think that follows.

I see people-intense going much farther back, perhaps even before we swung down from the trees and started walking upright across the savannah. Our brains are hard-wired to be people intense and when we ignore that both body and soul start to fail.

I also agree that technologies are changing how we organize ourselves in ways we are unaware but if we don't create and maintain tribes for ourselves we will also suffer in ways our race hasn't had to face before- chronically compromised immune systems being one of them.

Picture ourselves as we stand at the edge of the forest- some choose to step out into the open with its unknown dangers and some hang back to see what will happen. If we all step out we may all be eaten. If no one steps out we will never move forward. If no one eats the purple berries we may miss an important food source. If we all do we may discover, too late, poison. Our young can't keep up with the adults within a few days of birth, so some have to move more slowly and be more cautious while the others can move more swiftly ahead.

Our brain, nerves, organs, all the complexities of our continually adjusting chemical balance were honed for this and won't change anytime soon. We ignore the consequences of our humanity at our peril.

It also costs the economy big time in lost productivity.

Or have I missed your point entirely?

Posted by Lois Gory at July 15, 2008 10:32 AM

Politcal or not political?
Then don't bring up FDR as an example of a
good marketer.
Or Lincoln or Ike as an example of a good leader. These guys did stuff much more important
than making a good cup of coffee or a cool
portable music player.

Posted by x at July 15, 2008 10:48 AM

Lois.... You have not missed my point... You are on the point... Your insights are why I choose to use the terms Clusters, Clans and Tribes...

Clusters form everywhere there is human activity - you see them in your kids' schoolyards... They are there everyday at little break and lunch time... They are in the same spaces and thus they form the same patterns. Just looking at the schoolyard, as if it was the world, you can see how kid's networks operate through these sedantry patterns.

But hold the phone! On closer examination these clusters are in the same places but not populated by the same kids everyday. They move around from cluster to cluster - the level of chattering is still loud even shrill yet the composition of some clusters has altered. What has happened?

One cluster has introduced a new technology to the schoolyard - well its actually an old technology with a new presentation - the yo yo... Some kids are keen to try this old toy as if it is new all over again... They form a Clan... They are the early adopters of all new fads and fashions so they go to the clusters where the action is new and boundary pushing. The yo yo Clan forms quickly and it might implode just as quickly unless it reaches a magical 'tipping point'... Gladwell told us there are three actors in his 'tipping point' process (from memory) they Connectors (to other clusters), Mavens (know it all experts) , and Salesmen (Tom Peters types)... All play their role in creating a fad or fashion or a simple way of being in the world - in this case the next yo yo craze in this schoolyard...

In a Blink (read more of Gladwell) it is yo yo after yo yo in the clusters. But not in the basketball cluster or the handball cluster or the netball cluster, etc... These clusters are on closer examination different they have a clear and present purpose - always - and they are hard to influence from the outside.. These are the Tribes.... They are the 'keepers' of the old traditions, conventions, and ways of being in the world.

In terms of C21st networked economies I see global clusters that totally ignore the old Nation-State boundaries. These new clusters are truly global - they networks that are based on machine-to-machine transfers of information they have little need for people relative to their amazing size and reach - think eBay, Amazon, Skype, Google, etc... The link between these global networks and local life are Clans.... They operate equally well at the global and the local levels...

BUT the real anchor at the local level is the Tribes. They are still all the things you say Lois... This is where the jobs will be in the future for most people... They will work local or relatively local... They will work in industries that are networked clusters of people who have to provide a 'relevant and remarkable' experience for their consumers each and every time they do business with them... At the local level is it the Tribes that rule... Within the Tribes it is all a case of the 'experience' you are having as a member - good experiences lead you to continued participation and bad experiences lead you seek another cluster or set of clusters to find a new Tribe... The members of Tribes are not going to change who they are or what they seek - they seek a sense of 'belonging' - as they become nomadic in their search for the 'perfect Tribe'... Tribes stay the same and their membership changes...

If you want to see all this in action just continue to participate in this tompeters! forum because you will see the Tribes forming and their membership changing as the 'experience' of 'belonging' changes for each individual... The constant is the leadership or elders which is essentially Tom Peters and his nominated bloggers...

I must leave you all now because it is way past time for me to find a new Tribe.... Good luck to you all and happy days.....

Seeya....

Richard.

Posted by Richard Lipscombe at July 15, 2008 5:47 PM

Richard, friend...It's been good to read your comments and to respond in the affirmative or not. I thank you. But the tone of your latest comment contradicts the comment itself. Community members will look for other experiences and belongings once they have had their fill, but my leaving is way over do...so...

Don't cry for me Argentina
The truth is I never left you
All through my wild days
My mad existence
I kept my promise
Don't keep your distance

From what I've gathered here THE leader of this blog keeps his DNA promise to forever bring fresh and challenging ideas and I suspect that you will not keep your distance. There is the sense in your comment of perhaps not having your fill. So, we WILL cry, but continue on. And when you return, we will be most happy to see you. I do understand your sentiment. The essence of the words that I have just given you, a few community members of this site gave me today - the offer of a nice welcoming sense of returning. Nice, eh?

As I see it there will most certainly be new experiences to be had and new belongings to try ones ideas and theories. Great! But all can most certainly happen within more than a few sites. Do you think? The beauty here is that there is always something new being given, wonderful experiences being shared, and great things to enact daily.

Yes, there are many blogs out there and I, in fact, participate in more than a few from time to time. But I must admit, as you probably know, that the bulk of my blogging time has been spent here for no other reason than that there are ongoing wonderful posts and comments. (I have missed Jeff Angus' posts. I think he's brilliant. Will he be posting anytime soon?) This will undoubtedly not change. THE leader, as you've accurately called him, appears to be bottomless and bountiful.

But, if the posts and comments themselves are not novel enough, we can begin by stepping outside of ourselves to see beyond our words and those of others, to dig a little deeper to find some of the reasons why we do what we do and how we can change things in our personal and professional lives in order to be better. This betterment first begins with us. Ignite the passion. Join the fray! Dissent! Agree!

Change begins with me.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 15, 2008 7:53 PM

Thanks Richard- I'll take another look around my neighbourhood to see something new.

Posted by Lois Gory at July 15, 2008 8:59 PM

I'm once-again 'challenging the Master' - in this case the stated remarks of:

1 This blog is supposedly 99% about ideas regarding the effectiveness of organizations, and career life.

2 I 100.00% support rude as long as it's not personal.

3 ...'civility, in sight.'

On 1... 'about the effectiveness of organizations, and career life.'

As the precursor of organizational success and career life is of course personal effectiveness - the can-he-cut-it-or-not-edness of the person as an individual - I'm whole-heartedly with Bower's 'Leadership can best be learned on the job where people are interacting with each other in real situations.'

That's exactly what's happening here. And something for which 'rules' are entirely counterproductive.

'Control' is a weakness of those who fear a true exploration. Unlike giving a f*uckwit the launch codes, weblog comments are rarely dangerous and hence 'risk' here is a) proportional and b) tiny.

On 2... 'support rude as long as it's not personal'. Yeah right, absolutely. Just what are you hawking, T?

The best of Life is always personal. 'Smokey-night-club-situation intimate, rather than sport auditorium superficial.'

'The lyrics are often profound and intense... with moments of incredible mellowness and melancholy - others of extreme hardness and fury', a lot of what's here is 'presented emotionally'.

'Scuse me... 'emotionally'. Oh hell, who let that one in? Better block that out straightaway.

With 'emotional' come the bedfellows of volatile, and unpredictable - for which read: 'imaginative'. And isn't that the 'just-call-it-innovation' thing which tops the turdpile which comprises too much of business?

3 'Civility'. By what warped stretch of imagination is that ever a genuinely good thing in either an a) pressure or b) need-to-grow situation?

Honestly, you really want 'a polite action or expression'? 'Oh, he as a wonderful fellow, very personable - didn't of course achieve a darn thing, but nice, nonetheless.' Yeah, sure... stick that on your resume or mission statement. And then try to spend it at the local store.

Me? I'll take effectiveness - the arrogant surgeon who comes, does the job then pockets the fee and departs without even bothering with the patient's name. Or the mechanic who completes the hit without considering the collateral. Unless of course I want 'friendship', in which case I'll go to the bar or buy a puppy.

Back to Marv (Bower) again, with his 'The business should be kept in adjustment with the forces at work its environment.'

This weblog is a business. And the comments are 'the forces at work'. So where's the adjustment... the reaction to circumstances... the anticipation of the wildly unpredictable?

Where in the asterisking guide is 'we like posts that are honest and realistic'? I must have missed it. Or did I?

Not straying too far from Bower, there's a couple McK tenets we should worship - or at least use every day:

'Tell the truth. Challenge.' That's the basis of MB's blunt integrity.

Just because folk don't like something, doesn't make it wrong.

You should be fostering (encouraging and rewarding) unbridled creativity and authenticity.

Instead, you lean toward housekeeping. 'In search of order'. 'A passion for regularity.' Yeah, right - we'll all live long and prosper on that.

'People don't have real relationships with websites... they have real relationships with individual people.' In all their individual messy unglory.

So yeah, B52 your damn rules and replace 'em with just one... 'act unto others'. I'd sure-as-sh*it prefer someone to voice themselves honestly rather than tone it down. And if they're attacking me? So what? At least they'll be leaving someone else alone. [And personally, during the on-off-on years I've been here, I've never once-griped that someone got personal and called me something. Big deal.]

Passion. I love my missus, dearly. And we have a tempestuous relationship - swear, disagree, argue (and once I got an upside-the head from her). Point is... many relationships can be like that - and some of the best almost always are.

Live, love, laugh, argue, agree, whatever. It's a non-linear process, so get up on the effin' tightrope and fall off a few times - try a few cartwheels whilst you're there.

'Agree all the time. Be nice to each other, always?' Hardly. 'No - you really pissed me off - f*off you jerk!' And in twenty minutes, or a day, whenever you'll be friends again. That's life. And an essential element of 'family'.

If it's all hunky-dory all the damn time then you're either the Waltons or someone is lieing - holding back. And 'pause' is not a route to progress.

'Life's glue' - that which holds stuff together is 'responsibility, accountability' - you wanna do something, go right ahead, just don't duck the outcome.

In this case, if you want 'responsibility and accountability' then bar anonymous posting - make a clickable link compulsory so's someone can dive-off and follow-up away from the comments.

Having done Bower, let's do something from someone else: 'Our business needs a massive transfusion of talent... and talent, I believe, is most likely to be found among non-conformists, dissenters and rebels.'

'Our business' here is the comments. And I'll continue to 'laughing in the ranks, growing my hair too long' transgress - with full responsibility and accountability.

What's wrong with personal opinion honestly and constructively expressed?

Besides, if we need one thing above all else it's a dose of 'don't even bother getting defensive - just check your lies at the door and see what new information is available by listening'.

The whole basis of 'authentic' is unshackled, uncensored and uninhibited dialogue. So a big 'yay' to those whose word choice is as honest as their opinions.

Unless we're aiming for the eggless omlette, and considering Peters m-o we can't even begin to consider that an option, the onus is on those with the intelligence to see things as they really are... to openly, honestly and pro-actively voice themselves. Now, where did I put those dice?

Change - especially that of the believe-in type rather than some lesser candy-coated feelgood variety - is born of realization and acceptance of fact... something that simply ain't happening during marchin'-down-main-Street parades.

Bring on the skunks. They've been absent too damn long.

Posted by g at July 16, 2008 4:05 AM

Which, pray tell, g, are you? Your comments I must say are slightly reminiscent of those that have recently gone before by another prattler. It seems to me that you have not answered Rob or Lois' astute comments but continue to prattle on about more of the same. It's funny...often times we become painfully aware of the problem or the need to change, but find it often difficult to do so ouselves. By this, I mean, it is irrational to keep on and on about a particular belief without bringing further insight, though knowing fully that further insight is needed.

It is irrational to say the same things over and over again without variance. The beat then becomes a weary and annoying sound. Please be the skunk, g, and present cogent arguments, stinking up the place, that others might join in the brilliance of what's presented besides the hysteria, not only responding with sacarasm but with an element of discursive deference. Without this, skunks are just stinky. We don't even appreciate their silky coat or white brilliant stripe. I see that you have lessen the venom and this is appreciated. But I think TP's point about making 'em laugh first is essential here. I do not laugh much nor even smile when I read your comments.

By the way, did you respond to x's comment about that audition for the The Office? I had never seen this TV show. But last night while browsing, I caught a glimpse of it, a mere five minutes or so. I think you might be well suited for this show. And, not that it matters to you what I think, but I think that you not only have talent for acting, or at least script writing, you are also a bright man, though perhaps twisting a bit in the wind.

It's all good, g...really. No dishonoring intended. Peace...brother...

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 16, 2008 8:38 AM

g, you ask-

"3 'Civility'. By what warped stretch of imagination is that ever a genuinely good thing in either an a) pressure or b) need-to-grow situation?"

I've been involved in 'someone will die if we don't get on top of this now' events.

Civility was expected in those pressure situations, as a lack of civility often denoted a brain overwhelmed with the effects of cortisol and adrenalin and losing focus.

I don't see that civility and ability, even under pressure, are mutually exclusive.

Posted by Lois Gory at July 16, 2008 10:13 AM

I'm not clear why civility should automatically equate to ineffectiveness or moral cowardice. The argument seems to be that anything that isn't (rather showy) balls-out iconoclasm must be a wimpish cop-out. With respect, that's just self-serving nonsense. Civility is good in any circumstance in my book; it is as close as we now get in English to the French "gentil", an admirable quality, and much needed.

Posted by Rob at July 16, 2008 11:05 AM

Rob...I like the word, "gentil." It is a word that I have just used in another post. Though, I think that the orgin of the word, used to often describe the upper ruling class in Europe, often greatly masked a great ragging fire that blazed in many other conscious and subconscious ways, unleashing fiery on their "subjects."

I admire your comment, Rob.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 16, 2008 11:25 AM

Hey g - believe it or not, I agree with you! There is NOTHING wrong with personal opinion honestly and constructively expressed.

This is the crux - and most difficult part - about it: constructively. This implies that what someone is DOING is helpful. This varies in context and with whom one is communicating with. One of my Irish friends can tell me that I take may position because I am an "f**kin' yank" and I take no offense - I have a relationship with him that allows me to smile. Someone I don't have that relationship with would probably not get the smile. It is not as much what you say, but what you are doing. If you are saying things to make people feel small or out of disrespect, then it is hard to make a case for being constructive. With a rich (and much different) context, the same comment may be motivating and encouraging.

The problem with a blog or written discussion is that we only have what is written to help us understand what someone is doing. Thus, it can be really difficult to know whether one should smile or get angry at a comment. Being sensitive to this does not mean that you censor yourself - if your intentions are good but you are saying something that is easily construed as negative, build a bit more context in it to ensure it gets taken in the right light (or edit it to make it clear).

One last point: ad hominem attacks are IRRELEVANT personal attacks. Sometimes who the person is and what their history tells us IS relevant to the discussion. But that has to be established, not assumed or merely asserted.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 16, 2008 12:18 PM

Wow, Martin! I feel sufficiently schooled. Am I smiling?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 16, 2008 2:41 PM

I hope you are smiling Judith - I did when I read your post.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at July 16, 2008 2:50 PM

Yes, Martin. I'm schooled and smiling.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 16, 2008 3:03 PM