Comments

Steve-While I appreciate the tenor of your post, a good story well told by its very nature elicits a sort of dialogue or co-creation, a response to the story which will engender another response. This response often has reminiscences of the other story. When told again bits and pieces of our lives are added and other bits taken away. We pretty much have the same story, though perhaps experienced differently.

Good stories often have a recognizable experience and by their very nature create a dialogue of sorts, continuous stories. What is good story? One that may tell a personal story but is universal in nature. A good story perceives the other, the hearer. When stories are focused on "me," and when they are vainglorious, trite or contrived their impact is lessened. There is also no dialogue or co-creation so described.

By the way, I love Martin Buber.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 28, 2008 12:11 PM

Judith .... maybe "well told" means that the story isn't just a monologue, but an attempt to connect. "A personal story that is universal in nature" is one that can connect. I'm thinking of my FDR post last week, and how he told his stories on the radio not thinking of them as mass broadcasts, but how they connected to individual people.

So much of marketing is monologue, which, I believe, is a major reason so much marketing is ineffective. If we think about shouting at a mass audience, it is much harder for the story to connect.

Thanks for your (always) thoughtful commentary!

Posted by Steve Yastrow at July 28, 2008 2:59 PM

Given most people's skill with dialogue I would humbly suggest that most people are better off starting with a monologue - just not your monologue!

If we take deals, sales and marketing out of the argument - there is a basic human need for people to be listened to.

Quite often I find with coaching that people will pay good money to have someone (i.e. the coach) simply give them 120% of their attention. I come away from some sessions with people saying "wow that was amazing - it has really helped me focus on my goals etc". And yet 95% of what I have done is listen (with a little added structure and questions). but it is listening with all my heart and soul (and yes people can tell when it is at that level!)

In some ways coaching is the purest form of this idea - the actual service you are offering is facilitating the story, their story and not much else. The wonder of it is you get to help the client write the next chapter. Magical.

Posted by PaulH at July 28, 2008 3:36 PM

Steve, how true.

A couple of tunes that enhance your point.

1. "If silence was golden, you wouldn't earn a dime. 'Cause your mind is on vacation, and your mouth is working overtime."
Mose Allison

2. "You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything." - Talking Heads -

best,
bonnie
Richmond, VA
USA

Posted by BLarner at July 28, 2008 4:54 PM

PaulH-I like your idea.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 28, 2008 5:31 PM

Paul – I empathise entirely with your words. Last year I was asked to provide two sessions of coaching for a family doctor who was having some complaints from patients about his telephone manner. There was no question about his clinical competence – in fact he was a stereotypical class ‘A’ doctor in every aspect of his clinical work according to his boss. We spent two one hour sessions together and I mostly just listened to his story. We drew up some plans together that he felt good about and I left him to it. A few months ago I had contact from his boss to say ‘I don’t know what you two guys did but it worked.’ I don’t really know what we did either … other than me listening and reflecting on his story, told in his in his own words without interruption and me offering occasional positive re-enforcement. It is an incredibly satisfying feeling when one gets thanked for simply listening and offering occasional supportive or reflective comments that obviously hit the spot for the speaker.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 28, 2008 6:03 PM

2 ears and 1 mouth... we should use them in that order. We should all listen twice as much as we speak. That is how I try to achieve a connection with other people. Sometimes that means the other person gets a monologue and other times that means it is a dialogue. As long as we connect and both sides are interested in taking it further does it matter if it is a story or conversation?

Posted by Tom Frazier at July 28, 2008 7:39 PM

Are dialogues in words alone? They are responsive, eh? More than anything, we may connect with others through body language. Body language can cause us to shift out of a monologue, insisting on a more honest dialogue.

Our response to others are often based on the slight of an eye, the motion of the head, or the turn of a pursed lip. Dialogue often ensues in direct response to body language or at the very least influenced by it.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 28, 2008 10:23 PM

Steve, while I endorse your broad principle (while disputing the title - stories are immensely powerful) I don't believe there is a general rule for every circumstance here. At issue is the creation of a positive underlying dynamic between two or more people. Certainly that often takes much more active listening than we (stereotypically men) tend to give. And then again, sometimes a monologue may be just what is needed. And sometimes a dialogue may benefit from silence - an underrated quality in today's world of rush-to-contribute user-generated content.

Posted by Rob at July 29, 2008 12:12 AM

Paul talks of the "basic human need for people to be listened to." That's why brute-force, one-way, monologue, in-your-face, chest-beating, we're-#1-one marketing fails most of the time!

Posted by Steve Yastrow at July 29, 2008 1:24 AM

Judith I agree with the body language part. It's one area that many people try hard to get right (mirroring etc) and yet many get it the wrong way round. The trick is to look at your attitude not your body language - if you are truely interested in someone and what they are saying your body language will take care of itself!

Posted by PaulH at July 29, 2008 2:08 AM

'slight of an eye, the motion of the head, or the turn of a pursed lip' - Brilliant!

I think Judith’s point about body language is an excellent observation. It is also perhaps one reason why email can sometimes be the wrong medium for some circumstances. In communications body language is more important than the words we use or the tone of our voice according to most research

To me it seems like it’s often more about eyes than ears.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 29, 2008 3:24 AM

I appreciate Rob's point very much. The herding of all thing one way is probably not the best idea for uderstanding or relating to anything. Both monologues and dialogues are needed. The conversation has to begin and then continue- hence the need for continuous communication in monologues and dialogues.

Commmunication is ongoning; what appears like the end is never quite the end proper; it's a restart or refocus of the beginning. (There is nothing new under the sun.) However, when one focus has been in vogue for a long time, perhaps even at the expense of other possible pertinent ways, a refocus on another way is probably necessary.

Steve's voice, along with others, is that current focus. Funny thing, though...when we have exclusively exercised this way over a period of time the focus will then need refocusing. All of this refocusing seems necessary for the betterment process, that more excellent way. In reading Steve's two books Brand Harmony and We this point is obvious. Thank you, Steve!

A wonderful observation is that TP's focus on excellence, though presented in various ways, over many books and hundreds, even thousands of seminars all over the world, remains central. This is the brilliance and beauty of TP's stories that propel us to enter a dialogue professionally and personally, for excellence, as we know through reading his books, is an ongoing pursuit.

Dialogue does not end and begin in a space of time. Well told stories span the existence of time, beginning with a monologue. "In the beginning was the Word...."

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 29, 2008 4:35 AM

Beautiful, PaulH. Thank you.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 29, 2008 4:36 AM

Trevor-Thou protesteth too much. While I very much appreciate body language, it is also often in explicit words in any medium with follow-up personal emails that not only acknowledge the tenor of the words written but the words themselves that make the difference. But then again maybe not. You've heard of letting that sleeping dog lie?

More public words are perhaps needed when wiggling about. The safeguarding of our well-crafted image, through public and private mediums, is often not protected by us, but exposed by others in spite of us. When shall we move forward? I say NOW! I consider this dialogue henceforth OVER!

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 29, 2008 4:57 AM

Hi Judith - enjoy your day - and I agree lets move forward.

Posted by Trevor Gay at July 29, 2008 7:14 AM

Steve, is "brute-force, one-way, monologue, in-your-face, chest-beating, we're-#1-one marketing" actually marketing anyway? Sounds much more like selling to me, which, as Peter Drucker reminds us, is what real marketing aims to make redundant.

Posted by Rob at July 29, 2008 7:40 AM

I have taught in all my leadership courses that real listening is the "gift of human attention". We have to be willing to listen and understand others if we want to connect. One of the questions I ask in my training is,"Why do we not like to go to funerals or visit with those who are very sick?" Most common response, "I don't know what to say." Precisely. We worry too much about what we are going to say and too little about listening, learning, and providing that gift of human attention when it is needed most.

Posted by Phil at July 29, 2008 7:59 AM

PaulH - There is a saying that "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." I believe that it can also be said that "out of the abundance of the heart" the body speaks. My mother used to tell us when our attitude was not right but our words smooth as silk, "your body is speaking so loudly that I can't hear a word you're saying."

Getting our motives right seems to be at the root of your suggestion that aligns attitude with sincere listening. (Yes, it's a heart thing.) This, of course, brings about sincere responses, a more authentic dialogue - a better way of communicating. Mirroring, as you rightly suggest, is not dialogue; it's not communicating. Mirroring is mimicking.

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 29, 2008 8:24 AM

Isn't all this a bit too earnest? All you are trying to do is sell somebody something.

Posted by x at July 29, 2008 9:11 AM

x-Your point is well taken in that we may have made grandiose ideas out of the simple process of supply and demand. But as we know in a competitive market there is a necessary courtship. Beyond Maslow's heirarchy, marketing and advertising of some sort seem obligatory. The difference would be if I'm starving with no means a six-course meal at New York's Le Bernardin is insignificant or if I'm homeless a suite at the Bellagio is out of reach.

We must be hard wired beyond merely "trying to sell somebody something." Everything we do is about expression. (It is often about how consumers feel and then if the product is really needed. Of course, we often buy when there is no need.) This is the necessary dialogue and when there is dialogue, of course, there are differences of opinions, agreement, etc. So, it may not be too earnest afer all. And, besides, when has being too earnest become problematic?

Posted by Judith Ellis at July 29, 2008 11:42 AM

What is real? Its seems like the logical extension of this discussion is that there is no reason to care about anyone unless you can sell them something.
It seems like this thread is about selling the idea that selling stuff is almost an act of grace.

Posted by x at July 30, 2008 9:36 AM

"It seems like this thread is about selling the idea that selling stuff is almost an act of grace."

Earnest? Indeed. Too earnest? I'd say not. Lovely? Yes. Agreeable? No.

Grace is unmerited favor; selling involves persuasion. Grace is given; selling is convincing.

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Posted by Judith Ellis at July 30, 2008 6:43 PM

Regarding the power of real dialogue, check out www.conversationcafe.org--"open, hosted conversations in cafes and other public places. A simple process helps to shift us from small talk to BIG talk, and to make sense of our world." A process invented or shared by Vicki Robin, co-author of Your Money or Your Life from some years ago, introducing the voluntary simplicity movement. Participating in one of these with a few strangers can be a special and surprising experience. No props needed, except maybe a talking-stick or other object to pass around.

Posted by Susan at July 31, 2008 12:28 AM

Steve, I agree with your basic point, but I think Judith's first comment is dead on. If you say, "don't tell stories" you eliminate the single most powerful communications tool that humans have ever had. But if you see dialogue as sharing stories, telling and listening, you have something closer to what Buber means.

One of his key works is "Ich und Du" where "du" is the familiar form in German. It's what you use with family and close friends. There is even a small ceremony that's often observed when German-speakers shift from "Sie" to "Du." We used to use "thou" in English for the same purpose.

Stories are the way that I share with you the essence of who I am. It's how I give you a sense of my experience. Stories are the way you do the same for me.

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Posted by Wally Bock at August 2, 2008 5:24 PM

Wally-Your comment is simply lovely. Thank you. It evoked images for me about what communication entails. The essence of communication is stories. They evoke images, those that are a part of our shared experience or those that through the telling of the story become a part of our experience that we then share. (What comes first the image or the words? Probably the image.) Stories do not necessarily need traditional characters and plots; perhaps all they need is identification and imagination. The formal and informal will probably take care of themselves.

Posted by Judith Ellis at August 2, 2008 6:26 PM