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World's Worst Advice!

An old friend visited for a couple of days last week. Google him, and you'll be impressed. Or you would be, if I'd tell you who it is.

In the course of a dozen conversations—old guy conversations—we shared stories of joys and sorrows, anger and pain, good fortune and ill winds, pals and foes and traitors and through-it-all supporters.

His Hall-of-Fame career includes bushels of excoriating criticisms along the way. Embarrassing and well-deserved failures. Off years—in fact, off decades.

And musing on it all reminded me of a Very Sensible Saying that I think is pure, unmitigated crap, in fact the World's Worst Advice: "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em."

As I said ... pure crap.

Forget "fold 'em."
Drop it from your vocabulary.
Excise it.
Bury it.
Stomp on its grave.

If you care, really care, really really care about what you are pursuing, well, then, pursue-the-hell-out-of-it-until-hell-freezes-over-and-then-some-and-then-some-more. And may the naysayers roast in hell or freeze in the Antarctic or bore themselves to death with the sound of their "statistically accurate" advice.

It's a good fortnight to bring this up. I'll bet the farm, my farm, or at least an acre thereof, that less than 1% of the 10,000 athletes in Beijing moved smoothly through their careers. I'll bet virtually all had coaches who advised 'em to hang it up, "career-ending" injuries, humiliations heaped upon humiliations, and so on. And on.

And yet they persisted.
And they're in Beijing.

My anonymous visiting friend gave me The Pixar Touch: The Making of a Company, by David Price. Consider this paragraph:

"One of the curious aspects of Pixar's story is that each of the leaders was, by conventional standards, a failure at the time he came onto the scene. [Animator-superstar John] Lasseter landed his dream job at Disney out of college—and had just been fired from it. [Tech genius and founding CEO Ed] Catmull had done well-respected work as a graduate student in computer graphics, but had been turned down for a teaching position and ended up in what he felt was a dead-end software development job. Alvy Ray Smith, the company's co-founder, had checked out of academia, got work at Xerox's famous Palo Alto Research Center, and then abruptly found himself on the street. [Steve] Jobs had endured humiliation and pain as he was rejected by Apple Computer; overnight he had transformed from boy wonder of Silicon Valley to a roundly ridiculed has been. ..."

That is, shit happens. And if enough of it happens to you, then, if you are wise, you'll fold 'em. And God (and I) will love you just as much as if you'd endured—but we won't read about you in the history books.

Now if you do indeed "endure"—well, we probably won't read about you either, because the odds indeed are long against you making it to that history book or Beijing. I readily admit that.

But if you really really really care ...

About computer animation. Or rowing. Or the shotput. Or those supercalifragilisticexpialidocious chocolate-chip cookies you bake. (Alas, Mrs. Fields announced a bankruptcy filing today.) Or haiku. Or better ways to provide a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious customer experience.

Or ...
Or ...

If you really really really really really care ... then there ain't no time to fold 'em until your last breath is drawn—and even that's too soon if you've bothered along the way to inflame others about your presumed Quixotic cause.

In the (doubtless not) immortal words of Tom Peters: "There's a time to hold 'em and a time to keep on holdin' 'em—if you really really really care."

Your responses are as always very very welcome!

Tom Peters posted this on 08/18/08.

Comments

Fold? I get the point TP, but then again, Seth nailed it with the whole "know when to quit" thing. Hell, if I would have had your advice 25 years ago I would have married that woman I loved so much (surely ending in divorse). I would have stayed at that company because I loved what I did (it folded without me)...I would have kept playing guitar with that band back in Bloomington...I...

Posted by Scott Swift at August 18, 2008 2:19 PM

It seems that part of it is that if these guys didn't succeed, they tried another route to success. They persisted toward their visions of themselves, but not necessarily the same ones they started with.

Posted by cathy mosca at August 18, 2008 2:42 PM

Always loved that song. Still listen to it today
But, never thought of it as advice for life. Just for playing cards
Perhaps the message is that the guy who dished so much worthwhile advice in how to win the game..... "bummed" a cigarette and went to sleep. Hmmm......

Posted by nextgenradio at August 18, 2008 3:13 PM

A lot of success stories I've read are about failure and rejection and then persistence, followed by success.

Posted by Dan Schawbel at August 18, 2008 3:23 PM

Maybe it’s something about you folks from Vermont. I have a book of motivational quotes and Calvin Coolidge is quoted; ‘Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.’

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 18, 2008 4:15 PM

Persistence has become one of my favorite words - and I could not help but think of this quote from Randy Pausch after reading Tom's great post.

"The brick walls are there for a reason. The brick walls are not there to keep us out; the brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something. The brick walls are there to stop the people who don’t want it badly enough. They are there to stop the other people!"

I really believe that elite athletes "get it" - many of them would want to make the brick walls taller and stronger - that would work to stop more of the "other people" - but not them!

Posted by Bruce Humbert at August 18, 2008 5:25 PM

Tom, I've always like that song, but not as personal advice. I agree you have to know when to keep going, and then when you think you can't go any further, find a way to go some more. It's been fun watching that happen during the Beijing Olympics. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly. - Michael

Posted by Michael Ray Hopkin at August 18, 2008 6:11 PM

true...but one of my favorite Turkish proverbs says, no matter how far you go down the wrong road, turn back

Posted by Mike Neiss at August 18, 2008 6:12 PM

So many success stories come from people who are fired, laid off, you name it. It teaches you to take nothing for granted and not be afraid of failing the next time. Great post, Tom. A good reminder that anyone chasing a dream is dead, once they stop chasing it.

Posted by Kevin Hunt at August 18, 2008 7:50 PM

periodically, we all come to a bridge to a better place. Sometimes, the bridge is covered with muck.
And we have to ask ourselves; "am I willing to get my feet dirty to get where I want to go"
People who can't see the other side usually stay clean. Vision is everything. I believe that those who truly have vision and know what awaits (or believe they know) will always keep moving towards it. They don't consider "failure" an option. What most people would consider failure, they consider "setbacks" or "detours".

Posted by jamie goren at August 18, 2008 8:11 PM

Look up John Ridgeway atalntic oarsman?

Posted by Patrick at August 19, 2008 2:04 AM

Just was watching the Nova Science Now episode on the discovery of the IPS stemcells and how Dr. Yamanaka persisted in the face of criticism. Now they think he could win the Nobel Prize. I think that is what Tom is talking about. Don't fold because someone says you are wrong. If you think and more importantly feel you are on the right track or have the right goal, you should pursue it. Don't fold.

I don't think what Seth is talking about applies here. He is talking about settling for the seemingly safe or sure option because you are afraid of change or chaos. Also doing things the same way because you have always done it the same way.

However, the problem lies in knowing when you are on the right track and no amount of science, proverbs or anything/anybody else can tell you this. It is where the statement of knowing when to fold them applies. Only you know, don't let someone else tell you or convince you about this.

Posted by AR at August 19, 2008 2:34 AM

The Key is to know what to quit and what to persist with. Quitting is healthy if what you are doing is not taking you to your goals. It often helps to think of what you want to do in more abstract terms (rather than a job or career)

One of my jobs as a manager is to help people develop their careers. One of the key parts of that is moving their thinking away from "I want to be a consultant" to what they enjoy doing and developing what they have a natural apptitude for. When that is understood 3 different job opportunities open up rather than 1 ( and sometimes that does include becoming a consultant!)

Posted by PaulH at August 19, 2008 3:06 AM

I agree with Paul. There have been times in my career when I got fed up bashing my head against a brick wall and decided to move on to tackle the same issue from a different direction. Moving ‘sideways’ to tackle a problem meant that I saw it from a ‘new dimension’ and this sometimes gave me the energy and motivation to carry on fighting. This is surely better and less burdensome than confronting the same brick wall head on continuously as if it were a test of strength.

There is also a point in this whole scenario when it becomes mentally ‘unhealthy’ to persist in fighting and battling. I feel there is a time to quit when trying to balance one’s own mental health against the worthiness or importance of the issue at stake. Most things are negotiable.

Was it Groucho Marx who said; ‘Those are my principles ... and if you don’t like them …. I have some more.’

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 19, 2008 3:56 AM

To maintain the cards analogy:

All this talk of tackling an issue from a different direction or retreating back down one road to take another is fair enough. But surely the point is that you don't fold and leave the game. You might throw away some or all of your cards, you might have to tough out a few difficult rounds, you might have to bluff a bit - but you stay in the game. The tactics might change but (to mix gurus) the Big Hairy Audacious Goal remains.

Are we taking bets on who Tom's pal is who visited? I'll try Herb Kelleher.

Posted by Mark JF at August 19, 2008 4:39 AM

One of the hard things for many people is that they often don't really know what they want to do or what their "calling" is. We are actually very poor at helping young people explore this it often takes a few attempts (prototyping!?!) before people suddenly find that they are not who or what they thought they were.

Posted by PaulH at August 19, 2008 8:08 AM

When we talk about persistence and not giving up...are we talking about not giving up 'altogether' or not giving up 'the current direction'?

If it's my desire to market widgets and I find after a year that there just is not a market for my widgets...I need to give it up. Right? I can still work on being a successful entrepeneur...and I can maybe find a cute 'in house' use for my widgets, but a Widget Billionaire perhaps I'll never be. Throwing time and money at this Widget market may prove to be a bad idea.

In fact, it may become an idea that bankrupts me.

Knowing when to fold 'em...in poker and in business...may not be such bad advice; if you LEARN from folding and you don't make the same mistake twice...

Posted by Defmall at August 19, 2008 8:30 AM

People who are very succesfull early in life -
for example best selling authors who hit it big early on -
are not the best people to listen to about
never giving up -
I mean, what do they know about never succeeding?

Posted by x at August 19, 2008 9:16 AM

Having the tenacity to persevere is so important.
I dug out the rejection letters and emails I got from all the publishers I'd contacted a few years back with my book idea (including a rejection from Wiley, who are my current publishers!). What did I do. I 're-framed' the ideas and went back and knocked on those doors again. And got lucky...and got published.

Posted by Ian Sanders at August 19, 2008 10:28 AM

My teenage daughter loves to point at me when I do something she doesn't like and say "You fail!" and I always thank her. I keep telling her that people who have never failed lead exceedingly timid lives. History is not made by the timid, nor the intimidated. Optimists are undaunted, and I count myself among them.

Posted by Lark at August 19, 2008 11:20 AM

I think you hold on to the vision, the dream, the aspiration, but you wisely fold specific steps/ventures along the way that aren't working. In others words a hybrid of Peters/Godin.

Posted by Jeffrey at August 19, 2008 12:35 PM

Paul - So right! Knowing what really is going to be something that you can identify with is the key to unlocking the passion, interest, and excellence of someone. And we (big we) are not so great at doing this.

We can start a cliché showdown here if we are not careful: canadian health care pharmacy viagra

"know when to hold 'em..." v. "when at first you don't succeed..."

Despite the tongue-in-cheekiness, I suppose my point is that taking on a cliché has a purpose - a rhetorical one really - of providing great emphasis. And that emphasis - the virtue of perseverance - should not be ignored (and the examples above are really great).

However, in the end, I am going to dissent. The "know when to hold'em" point is not about giving up - it is about having judgment. Surely the point is not to give up judgment in favor of perseverance! To pit them against each other cheapens them both. There are some great examples above (Trevor's, notably) that show how judgment and perseverance work together to ensure success. The goal does not get thrown out when a plan of reaching that goal seems to be failing - we reassess how to get to the goal and make a judgment as to perhaps abandoning that method (head banged against that wall too many times) and trying another (go over the wall, dig a tunnel underneath, or go around it - to continue the metaphor). So the perseverance leads you not to give up the quest and judgment allows you to make adjustments so that the quest may be fulfilled.

So Tom, I respectfully disagree - not with the value of persistence, but with contrasting it with judgment. Judgment without persistence is shallow, persistence without judgment is stupid.

Posted by Martin Koning-Bastiaan at August 19, 2008 12:40 PM

The most valuable line from The Serenity Prayer is "... and the wisdom to know the difference."

BTW... regarding quiting... check out the new non-mainstream movie "Bottle Shock"

thoroughly enjoyable...

Posted by tom sullivan at August 19, 2008 1:34 PM

I got the point but the people are creatively different. As someone said, Different strokes for different folks!!! Some people will hold it and later decide to fold it; this folding means corrective action. And some people can continue to hold and make the impossible possible.

There are various ways to success. Quitting does not mean loosing as long as you are working towards your goal with new approaches. And continuing to hold without renewed approach/strategy is not good either. If all the folks were charging ahead without folding, I do not know what would it look like. We've got to learn - unlearn - relearn all the time. In the end, I would say it works for some and not for others.

Posted by virk at August 19, 2008 2:29 PM

Was on another long flight the other night -- this time Malaga (Spain) - Bangkok (Thailand) -- and so I brought along "Excellence" to keep me company (finding the currently fashionable claptrap re: global financial meltdown that is on all the airport shelves these days just too irritating, inaccurate, and downright insight-less to read).

It occurs to me that it contains pretty much the same message here -- focus on the winners, and focus on how they won; extra clue: they didn't win folding. (Incidentally, as an aside that also goes to explain why at 4.47 am local time I came to your site for a visit.)

One thing that pisses so many people off about your missives Tom, be they 120 words long or 120,000 words long, is that they consistently seek out the criteria for for success, rather than failure. To a lot of average middle managers/traders/economists/journalists/bureaucrats, that makes them feel like failures. It makes them feel like you're not being objective (as if the doomsayers are!) free viagra sample pack

But they miss the point: look at the failures, learn from them, and spin them into growth, into communities, into new ideas and hence new innovations. Disrupt the mediocre pattern of the old, the guys who get consistently taken in by the market swings, the bad habits, and the lay-offs ... and you're glimpsing the future.

I enjoyed re-re-re-(something like that) reading "Excellence" the other night, for the same reason I enjoy your blog. Your writing gives the reader, in whatever walk of life, permission to get beyond that innately North European/North American unforgiving doom-and-gloom, self-flagellating bullshit which weighs down on the bad times and always inevitably fails to capitalize on the good ones.

Random midnight scribblings, but anyway -- congrats again, and thanks!

Posted by Daniel M. Harrison at August 19, 2008 5:01 PM

There is a time to continue and a time to stop, this is one of them...

Posted by Steve Gray at August 19, 2008 5:05 PM

I see by the posts that a lot of people talk about the downside of this behavior. Maybe you won't succeed, maybe it will never work.....
But (after doing 4 start-ups and working on number 5), if you don't believe, I promise you will never achieve any of your visions.

Posted by Bruce Fryer at August 19, 2008 8:21 PM

Lark, I love your comment. Thank you.

Posted by Judith Ellis at August 20, 2008 7:34 AM

And, thank you, Daniel M. Harrison.

Posted by Judith Ellis at August 20, 2008 7:42 AM

Just what I needed. I'm 9 months into my first startup. Every brick wall can be an opportunity, if not for the business then for me to handle the next one better. Thanks again.

Posted by Aaron Robinson at August 20, 2008 8:35 AM

THANK YOU FOR THIS! I am currently working with a client to bring a new brilliant product to market. The client is extremely passionate about her product and has worked her tail off on her business plan, marketing, prototypes, has attended trade shows, etc. However, her bank turned her down for an SBA loan yesterday. Of course, her initial reaction was one of total disappointment. I say THEIR LOSS. Belief and persistence bridge the gap between our dreams and reality! Thanks again!

Posted by Diane Thompson at August 20, 2008 11:35 AM

Incredible post. But wisdom has two sides. The other half is explained in Seth Godin's book The Dip.

Posted by Ben Arment at August 20, 2008 1:53 PM

This tenacity to keep going beyond the obvious time to fold 'em is the key characteristic of entrepreneurs growing their companies.
Spot on!
As for the scoffing comment that comments staying with it means staying in a bad relationship - think a bit deeper. Just because you do not fold 'em does not mean you keep doing the same things.
You try new ways.
Marriage counselling teaches new communication techniques and saves many a marriage. Those are the people who have not rushed to fold 'em and I wonder how many are glad they did not rush to divorce.

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Posted by Jacoline Loewen at August 21, 2008 1:39 PM

Jacolene – thank you for an excellent observation.

I have the greatest respect for marriage counsellors and I’m sure you are right that many people regret folding their cards before they have tried everything to rescue a marriage. Others may believe - after trying unsuccessfully for many years and giving up on a bad marriage - that folding their cards was the best thing they ever did. I speak from personal experience.

That is not to be critical for one nanosecond of the highly professional work of marriage counsellors (I’ve worked with some) … just a personal view.

Your comparison of ‘folding’ in a relationship and not folding as entrepreneurs is a fascinating and enlightening one. Methinks all situations, like all people and all relationships are unique.

Posted by Trevor Gay at August 21, 2008 4:52 PM

Sometimes one wants to achieve something special, and in the meantime, when trying to achieve it...
Life shows us that actually that was a prerequisite to achieve what we really wanted but couldn't define before.
In my opinion, the key is to keep looking for what we really want to achieve.

Posted by Jose Antonio at August 23, 2008 8:49 AM

And when you're dealt nothing, as always happened to me in 5 Card Stud, nothing can sometimes be a really cool hand. At least if your competitors fold.

Posted by John O'Leary at August 23, 2008 9:02 PM