Comments

I saw Alice Waters on 60-minutes last night. Quite a woman and revolutionary! Bravo!

Posted by Norman at June 15, 2009 3:38 PM

Tom, I suppose that's why I consider business schools and the military to be like religion and politics: a questionable mix at best. Yet I could (and would like to be) proven wrong.

In the military, you don't typically go do something stupid, get 1/3 of your troops killed, discharge 1/3 unexpectedly, and leave the remaining 1/3 to do clean up the mess and get touted as a hero and given the Congressional Medal of Honor. But in business, we seem to be teaching folks to land at the helm of a big corporation, drive 1/3 of your folks to guit, lay off another 1/3, then work the hell out of the remaining 1/3 and then leave the company in a giant mess just as you split with a huge-ass bonus check like you're performed a miracle.

Maybe the b-schools could use more top-notch military leadership in revamping the curriculum?

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 15, 2009 5:48 PM

I look forward to the further analysis and the recommendations: no business schools, different business schools, or what?

One line in the article struck me: "by studying the arts, cultural history, literature, philosophy, and religion, people develop their powers of critical thinking and moral reasoning". This can of course be true (and it certainly souns good), but in reality it is anything but a universal fact. Plenty of unpleasant exceptions out there. More to the point is that students of these subjects will probably end up in roles where their character flaws and ethical lapses are less likely to bankrupt whole economies, lead to massive unemployment, and provide them with sod-you piles of cash. In other words, they're not really that much "better", just less visible.

Posted by RobCH at June 16, 2009 12:47 AM

There was a recent article in The Economist (I think) talking about B Schools introducing and Oath - much like the medical hippocratic.

Not sure this will do anything but it's an interesting reflection on our times.

Posted by PaulH at June 16, 2009 3:09 AM

CNBC's Street Signs just had a discussion of this involving Angel Cabera of Thunderbird (B-Schools have some culpability) and Steven Kaplan (B-Schools have no cupability) of U Chicago's Booth School.

Posted by Stephen Garner at June 16, 2009 10:38 AM

Is there somewhere that I can find an overview of TP's issues with Business Schools?

Is there a place I can find an overview of other criticism's of Business Schools?

Posted by Stephen Garner at June 16, 2009 10:39 AM

If I could paraphrase dear old Groucho Marx: "Business schools shouldn't admit the type of person who actually wants to do an MBA."

Posted by Mark JF at June 16, 2009 10:47 AM

This is an interesting one. I have mixed feelings. I was fortunate enough to go to what I would say is a very good Business School in Plymouth University (England) 1996-98 to complete my MA Management (Healthcare). I feel it helped me become a more rounded person but I’m still not sure if it made me a better manager – I still ponder that. I DEFINITELY FEEL I’VE LEARNED MORE IN THE UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS.

I went for that course of study as a mature student at 43 years of age already with considerable experience in a real job. I was therefore far more motivated than when I was younger because this was a personal decision – it was something I wanted to do. Not least I was paying a considerable amount of money I could ill afford for putting myself through 3 years of hell by day release whilst holding down a more than full time senior management job in healthcare; trying like hell to be a good father and husband; completing demanding deadlines for around 25 written assignments; and completing a two year self directed research project resulting in a 20000 word dissertation.

I therefore believe student motivation is well over 75% of the reasoning whether a Business School is good, bad or indifferent. So I would say examine first our reasons for going to a Business School.

Ironically I was talking today to a good friend who is a Chief Executive in a large healthcare organisation in Northern England. Nigel said he paid £3500 for attending his Business School to obtain his MBA. He said quite openly that ALL HE GOT FROM IT was a tie commemorating it from the Business School.

To quote Nigel “£3500 means it was a bloody expensive tie”

I guess it is like everything else in life - we must speak as we find. I think we cannot judge the business school without also looking at personal enthusiasm of the student for the course of study undertaken.

Don't know if all this makes any sense whatsoever. If it doesn't I will put it down to the sun shining gloriously here in wonderful Warwickshire and the balmy English weather may have befuddled my brain.

Posted by Trevor Gay at June 16, 2009 11:08 AM

Hey, Stephen... you're asking A LOT from that one! LOL. I've been reading, seeing, and hearing Tom's seriously powerful (and well aimed) rants about b-schools for 25 years. He's covered a lot of real estate on the issue. If Tom does point you to a synopsis of it, I'd like to see the list myself. Sure to be a hard-hitting version of the old "Honey Do" list!

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 16, 2009 11:12 AM

Trevor, love what you've shared here. I do find your comments about motivation being a major determinant in the outcome to be most interesting. You can call it doing "apprenticeships," or "co-op'ing" or whatever, but my hunch is that one of the very best things that any business school could do is make sure that every student spends as much time as possible during the course of their formal education working at and studying a variety of companies (up close and personal.) They need all the exposure to the real world they can get, with emphasis on a variety of leadership and management styles, business models, and even performance experiences. And they also need to be encouraged to take their professors to task and ask hard-hitting direct questions (with an expectation of honest answers and exploration to follow.) None of the "Well, it has always been done this way... Adam Smith said..." crap. The students, the professors, and the schools benefit by questioning and challenging the status quo. It's all about looking at both the old AND new, juxtaposing the two, and trying to figure out what works, why it works, and how it could be better applied.

I think the following two quotes thoroughly underscore this point:

"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." - A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)

"All great work is done in defiance of management." -- Bob Woodward.

*** My personal addendum to that last quote is: "If you want to see a genuine breakthrough (or more likely a break-with) and/or prove to the world that you're a certifiable dumbass, just tell one of your most creative, motivated, and defiant students 'It can't be done'." ***

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 16, 2009 11:33 AM

Hi Dan - and my favourite Peter Drucker quote says it all really: “Ninety percent of what we call ‘management’ consists of making it difficult for people to get things done.” - Peter Drucker

Posted by Trevor Gay at June 16, 2009 11:51 AM

How true that is.

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 16, 2009 12:05 PM

"99% of what "Trevor" does makes it Impossible for people to see the light of day, let alone remain sane."

"You are a professional" he chirps while laughing at their failed UA results, right before firing their lazy front line backsides. :>)

Posted by C Love at June 16, 2009 6:37 PM

Love you C :-)

Posted by Trevor Gay at June 16, 2009 6:40 PM

Stephen - Feel free to use the search engine here at tompeters.com to search for more on Tom's thoughts on business schools. Here's a lengthy piece from several years ago where Tom's interviewed on the topic:
http://www.tompeters.com/pdfs/bized_int.pdf

As for what others think- or more productively, what others are doing- you may also want to check out what Seth Godin's been up to with his version of business school:
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/06/learning-from-the-mba-program.html

Posted by Shelley Dolley at June 16, 2009 7:57 PM

Massar, the organisation I set up in Syria, was a case study in one module of the Harvard MBA course taught in 2008 and again in 2009. I'd never been to HBS before, and on my first visit I was struck by the (to me) extraordinary level of public introspection taking place among teaching staff and students about whether they were teaching/learning the right stuff. Massar - non-profit, NGO, citizenship, young people, non-formal learning - was chosen as a case partly in response to a desire by HBS to open up new avenues of thinking, and to explore social enterprise more. Since then that module has gone on to develop collaborative teaching ventures with the Grad School of Design, and I saw some of this exchange happening on my second visit. I think there may be more change and self-awareness behind the scenes at business schools than they're given credit for.

Posted by RobCH at June 18, 2009 6:01 AM

RobCH, by no means am I being a wise guy -- I want to hear your opinions: do you think that the "change and self-awareness" at the business schools is occurring a lot faster than it was, say, 5 years ago? If it is, I'm encouraged to think they're at least trying to move in the right direction. If not what do you think could be done to fix that problem? What would be your ideas for accelerating that sort of change, assuming that is needed?

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 18, 2009 8:21 AM

Dan, I'm really just not familiar enough with business schools - apart from a short course at Henley in the UK - to speak with any authority. You will notice the word "may" in my final sentence. For all I know they "may" all be just as bad as painted. It was simply that my own small outsider experience of HBS, which was getting a particularly bad slamming in the press, was that they (in part at least) were asking themselves some of the difficult questions. And by collaborating with the Grad School they were getting into the interesting crossover territory of commerce and arts, where two very different definitions of business success can collide. As recommended of course by one TP... I thought it deserved a mention.

I was struck on both visits by the pressure of group-think - not in the sense of mindless automata, but in the difficulty many had getting to the heart of organisations which did not fit with expected norms. There were quite a lot of "Does Not Compute" stares, especially when we got into discussion about what motivates a landscape designer (there is a connection!).

I trained as a designer, and still believe it is one of the best possible preparations for business life. It taught me that you're only ever as good as your next work, that the only critic that matters is yourself and you had better be the harshest, that all design is all about people, and that the greatest ideas mean nothing if they are not acted on. Best of all, I'm comfortable with uncertainty, with no rules, with the blank sheet of paper. The result of all that is something very different from an MBA mentality, at least as I see it. If the current climate ends the automatic MBA Ergo Optimus Sum and introduces a smidgin of Menschkeit then I reckon we would all be better off, including MBAs.

Posted by RobCH at June 18, 2009 9:55 AM

RobCH. Beautifully stated. I wish I had your gift with words. I'll bet you actually went into design because of your nature more so than "design training" changed you. The "does not compute" stares and people having difficulty dealing with the idea of ambiguity, design, and business all coming together (and yielding a profit)... all fitting descriptions of how folks have reacted all these years when I gift them with one of Tom's books.

Like you, I'm certainly in no position to describe what any business school is actually DOING. But as I see it, aside from understanding how to add and subtract and read a balance sheet, I think I'd rather learn Tom's general theories of business and then try to understand the nit-picky details, as opposed to just learning all the mechanics and technical stuff only to end up saying "Yuck. I'm not having any fun. I'm bored. Why the hell bother?"

In all fairness, though, praise the Lord for accountants that actually DO love what they do.

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Posted by Dan Gunter at June 18, 2009 11:09 AM

Dan, believe me, the design training certainly did change me, whether for the better is debatable. It was an exciting age! But as you say, it's just as well (other) people still love being accountants.

PS I love the sound of Seth Godin's DIY MBA.

Posted by RobCH at June 18, 2009 11:28 AM

RobCH, for real. I'd put money on a greater quantity and quality of top notch leadership coming out of that group than the average MBA program.

At the risk of generalizing, personal experience and a lot of looking around have taught me that the best and most sustainable businesses started with someone who couldn't stand the status quo and thus ended up doing something most "analytical" types said was ridiculous and impossible.

Still, somebody has to keep the books. But I'll admit that even then, someone who can paint me a colorful picture of how the money flows stands a better chance at getting my attention than someone who hands me a piece of paper and says "Here's the P&L sheet for 2008. Standard format. You'll understand it." Forget that. Show me the beauty and the ugliness you see in those numbers. What is the story they are telling? Do you see any subplots? Use metaphors, similes, lots of adjectives and adverbs. Paint me a mental picture. Here's a box of Crayons. Color on the wall, that's fine. As long as it ends up meaning something to BOTH OF US. If it doesn't, then probably neither one of us should be here.

Am I exaggerating? Anyone who thinks I am just hasn't gotten to know me yet.

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 18, 2009 11:57 AM

Related to the idea of doing something else....

Take a look at the WSJ article, "Wandering Minds Head Toward Insight" at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124535297048828601.html

On CNBC's "The Money Chase" giving an overview of the Harvard Business School, there were several comments about the exprience being like drinking from a firehose. There is no time for introspection.

Perhaps this lack of introspection contributed to business leaders not seeing the cliffs ahead of them.

Posted by Stephen Garner at June 19, 2009 8:32 AM

Any HBS graduates out there who would be willing to give us an insider's review? Professors? I'd like to hear their point of view. A mini SWOT analysis would be interesting to read.

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 19, 2009 9:18 AM

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/06/11/without.borders/index.html?iref=intlOnlyonCNN

Posted by RobCH at June 21, 2009 2:49 AM

RobCH, great article. Thanks.

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 21, 2009 10:42 AM

Thanks for the article link Rob - brilliant to see an ethical and practical use being made of MBA's.

Posted by Trevor Gay at June 21, 2009 2:32 PM

I got my MBA back in the early eighties in Chicago. One of the best courses I had was in management and business theory. Each week we would "prove" a theory. The following week we would tear it down. The result? I learned each situation is unique and while modeling can give you some structure, the rest is up to you.

Posted by Bruce Fryer at June 24, 2009 5:51 PM

Stephen, thank you for the box of Crayons you mailed me. I don't think I've ever opened an envelope and laughed so hard.

Rest assured, I will put them to good use! Your timing was impeccable, as I'd just repainted a wall. Oh, and thanks for making sure they're the non-toxic kind. How did you know I tend to chew on things while I'm thinking?

Posted by Dan Gunter at June 24, 2009 6:55 PM